VAR?

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, 54_and_counting said:

Do we bin it and go back to the days were refs were unquestionable, take our penalties yesterday (btw im only using our games because i watch them, i know other teams have had awful decisions as well) the ref had excellent views of both incidents and decided none were penalties until VAR got involved, especially the first one what part of VAR the did ref see and think "aye I'll change my mind" when they were pretty stonewall in real time

He didnt give them at the time because VAR is in operation.

Its the same with offside goals where linesmen just dont give the decision because they know VAR will do it if it ends in a goal, which ends in farcical situations where someone a clear yard offside doesnt get flagged offside and play continues unabated.

Our refs are too shit to use VAR, theyve proven that. So lets just go back to them making mistakes that ruin the game but dont ruin the emotions. Just now not being able to celebrate goals is sucking the life out the game. You just dumbly sit in the ground not reacting to anything because you know a 3 minute pause to the game is coming after every goal, or, like yesterdays game, the match just randomly stops 3 minutes after an incident so they can review it.

The benefits are literally zero when those using it are shit at their job.

Edited February 19 by RandomGuy.

[CharlieWhisky]

Not a loaded question, I’m just interested. How many other leagues with part-time referees have VAR? 

I’d have probably prioritised professionalising the guys on the pitch, so they’re not worrying about what Sharon from accounts is going to say on Monday, or whether they’ll be able to make enough sales to support their family next month, or if their boss will treat them differently if a decision goes against his/her team.

[Lyle Lanley]

Get var to f**k  

[AJF]

1 hour ago, Melanius Mullarkant said:

The minter list.

(So far)

 

Please can my name be struck from the list

I also feel like repeating that you cannot differentiate “VAR” and “those operating VAR”. They are the same thing.

It’s flawed, it’s shite, it diminishes our product and entertainment that we’ve loved for years.

[Pens_Dark]

First of all, depressingly, it is here to stay. 
 

If used properly then it would actually add to and benefit the game. It’s gone past the point of really defining what ‘properly’ even is any more - it’s just a pipe dream. 
 

Ultimately, human error will always be a thing and VAR has just made that more evident. You could accept (within reason) human error from the referees previously because they had to make decisions instantaneously. When they have a chance to look back on it and take an eternity to make the decision again it is unacceptable for people to see them coming…still…to the wrong conclusion. 
 

I'd get it punted tomorrow and go back to the good old days but it’s here to stay and I just simply don’t have any trust in the referees to turn it in to a positive. 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

1 hour ago, AJF said:

Please can my name be struck from the list

I also feel like repeating that you cannot differentiate “VAR” and “those operating VAR”. They are the same thing.

It’s flawed, it’s shite, it diminishes our product and entertainment that we’ve loved for years.

Too late. 
 

One simply cannot reverse time and be struck from the VAR Minter List.

ETA another pair of minters.

 

Edited February 19 by Melanius Mullarkant

[houston_bud]

9 hours ago, 54_and_counting said:

It is shite at games where time is taken for decisions, it is shite for the ticket paying fans, but unless someone comes up with another way to get more decisions correct during games then it's probably the best we'll get

Is it worth the trade off though? Ok, there is more correct decisions, but there's also more controversy, and long stops really make the game far less enjoyable. 

There's so many decisions that are subjective - I made the same point on the other thread - if qualified officials (plus the panel of so called experts) can look at several decisions multiple times, and from multiple angles, yet still arrive at a different conclusion then it tells us the system isn't fit for purpose.

I can't imagine ever stopping going to St Mirren games because of VAR, but I definitely watch fewer games on TV and I've turned off more games than I can remember in the past couple of seasons. VAR is a big part of that.

[Leith Green]

10 hours ago, Lyle Lanley said:

Get var to f**k  

Its nice that they have admitted that the ref and VAR officials made a mistake - but Crawford Allan told us only last week that VAR is helpful in these situations.

What would actually be useful is to hear the audio of what these fucking clowns said (or didnt) at the time the ball hit his arm.

I should say, this isnt just a "it wiz Hibs so I am moaning" situation, but VAR is awful, truly awful for most fans - as we suspected at the outset, it doesnt help the bias toward those two teams, all it does is amplify it.

It slows the game down, we are still missing blatantly obvious situations like the above, it is slightly better on the TV as you might actually see line, but to the actual fans in the stadium it tells us absolutely fuckall and the lack of consistency is ludicrous.

[Dons_1988]

27 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

Its nice that they have admitted that the ref and VAR officials made a mistake - but Crawford Allan told us only last week that VAR is helpful in these situations.

What would actually be useful is to hear the audio of what these fucking clowns said (or didnt) at the time the ball hit his arm.

I should say, this isnt just a "it wiz Hibs so I am moaning" situation, but VAR is awful, truly awful for most fans - as we suspected at the outset, it doesnt help the bias toward those two teams, all it does is amplify it.

It slows the game down, we are still missing blatantly obvious situations like the above, it is slightly better on the TV as you might actually see line, but to the actual fans in the stadium it tells us absolutely fuckall and the lack of consistency is ludicrous.

If you put allegiances aside and don’t get sucked into ‘my team did or didn’t get this given’ then I suppose you could just ask:

in spite of an increase in accuracy of decision making, does the competition feel any less distorted as a result? Do clubs feel any less injustice? Do clubs feel clearer on decision making? Do they feel the perception of incompetence or bias (conscious or unconscious) has gone away? 

Id say the answer to all of the above is no. Because VAR ultimately was introduced to tackle a perception. If you accept that it’s impossible to create a system that gets 100% accuracy in decision making, then really you’re saying the goal is to eliminate the perception that games are being decided by poor refereeing. Which it is utterly failing to do, whilst simultaneously ruining the match going experience. 

And they will never resolve that perception by the way, because the perception is wrong. Referees have never regularly been primarily responsible for the result of a football match, or league/cup winners. 

A complete failure at every level. 

In my entirely objective opinion. 

[AJF]

2 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

If you put allegiances aside and don’t get sucked into ‘my team did or didn’t get this given’ then I suppose you could just ask:

in spite of an increase in accuracy of decision making, does the competition feel any less distorted as a result? Do clubs feel any less injustice? Do clubs feel clearer on decision making? Do they feel the perception of incompetence or bias (conscious or unconscious) has gone away? 

Id say the answer to all of the above is no. Because VAR ultimately was introduced to tackle a perception. If you accept that it’s impossible to create a system that gets 100% accuracy in decision making, then really you’re saying the goal is to eliminate the perception that games are being decided by poor refereeing. Which it is utterly failing to do, whilst simultaneously ruining the match going experience. 

And they will never resolve that perception by the way, because the perception is wrong. Referees have never regularly been primarily responsible for the result of a football match, or league/cup winners. 

A complete failure at every level. 

In my entirely objective opinion. 

Summarised perfectly.

I think you’d be hard pressed to find anyone that could answer yes to any of these questions.

[Leith Green]

10 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

If you put allegiances aside and don’t get sucked into ‘my team did or didn’t get this given’ then I suppose you could just ask:

in spite of an increase in accuracy of decision making, does the competition feel any less distorted as a result? Do clubs feel any less injustice? Do clubs feel clearer on decision making? Do they feel the perception of incompetence or bias (conscious or unconscious) has gone away? 

Id say the answer to all of the above is no. Because VAR ultimately was introduced to tackle a perception. If you accept that it’s impossible to create a system that gets 100% accuracy in decision making, then really you’re saying the goal is to eliminate the perception that games are being decided by poor refereeing. Which it is utterly failing to do, whilst simultaneously ruining the match going experience. 

And they will never resolve that perception by the way, because the perception is wrong. Referees have never regularly been primarily responsible for the result of a football match, or league/cup winners. 

A complete failure at every level. 

In my entirely objective opinion. 

I think your post is sensible - what irritates is that Crawford Allan gets the BBC article telling us all that its factually improving scottish football...........while simultaneously pointing to a number of errors that VAR should have picked up.

It seems to me that we either dont have enough people watching the incidents, or the people watching the incidents are not trained properly or lack competence.

Whatever the answer, it is ruining the experience for everyone watching, esp in stadiums.

imho

[Jamie_B]

2 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

I think your post is sensible - what irritates is that Crawford Allan gets the BBC article telling us all that its factually improving scottish football...........while simultaneously pointing to a number of errors that VAR should have picked up.

It seems to me that we either dont have enough people watching the incidents, or the people watching the incidents are not trained properly or lack competence.

Whatever the answer, it is ruining the experience for everyone watching, esp in stadiums.

imho

I think a big part of the issue is that the thing we were all thinking about for video technology was to eliminate the egregious errors - the Thierry Henry handballs v Ireland, that kind of thing.

What we've got instead is re-refereeing of games that looks for the tiniest of infractions - see for example our disallowed goal against Aberdeen - as an excuse to overturn what has happened on the pitch. Often you are seeing penalties being given/goals disallowed for fouls that not a single person on the pitch or in the stadium have claimed for.

Same thing for offside - which is meant to be black and white - but ends up with millimetre margins being dissected while paying fans are left in the dark.

The problem is how do you write the rules that set the bar higher so that only the most blatant of injustices is picked up on?

Get it in the sea.

[Dons_1988]

10 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

I think your post is sensible - what irritates is that Crawford Allan gets the BBC article telling us all that its factually improving scottish football...........while simultaneously pointing to a number of errors that VAR should have picked up.

It seems to me that we either dont have enough people watching the incidents, or the people watching the incidents are not trained properly or lack competence.

Whatever the answer, it is ruining the experience for everyone watching, esp in stadiums.

imho

He’ll be able to support that with accuracy statistics. It will have improved the accuracy of decision making at a statistical level, and man tasked with defending the investment will push that as far as he can. 

[mizfit]

The only way we can stand up and get rid of it is a concentrated protest from every top flight club. 
 

M which sadly won’t happen. 

[2426255]

Using VAR replays is making the decisions more accurate - I don't think you could question that. The trade off is more accuracy for a poorer fan experience. If we went back to football without VAR then I think the same old complaints would creep back in. There isn't a perfect solution, it's a trade off.

Edited February 20 by 2426255

[KingswellsRed]

So the results are conclusive. Surely clubs can’t continue to ignore the feeling of fans. Somehow we need to make it known.

[Rael Rover]

12 hours ago, Melanius Mullarkant said:

The minter list.

(So far)

 

I voted to keep as if run properly it would be beneficial. The problem we have in Scotland is the application where VAR is basically used to re-referee too many decisions and has led to refs not giving decisions and letting the VAR ref decide. We need to more clearly define what gets referred and cut out the nonsense ones of limited contact, slight tug of jersey being picked up. Having a poor standard of ref overall does not help. If the question is do I have faith that VAR in Scotland will be improved I'd probably say no.

[2426255]

2 minutes ago, Rael Rover said:

We need to more clearly define what gets referred and cut out the nonsense ones of limited contact, slight tug of jersey being picked up. 

That'll never happen - why? because if it's a limited contact or slight tug of a jersey and it's against your team in an important game, then you, your team's players, manager will be complaining and saying "how was that no a foul ref?", "People's livelihoods are at stake".

Today if you even nudge another car then it's an insurance job for similar reasons. People can't see beyond their own interests and mediators are needed.

[DukDukGoose]

20 minutes ago, Rael Rover said:

I voted to keep as if run properly it would be beneficial. The problem we have in Scotland is the application where VAR is basically used to re-referee too many decisions and has led to refs not giving decisions and letting the VAR ref decide. We need to more clearly define what gets referred and cut out the nonsense ones of limited contact, slight tug of jersey being picked up. Having a poor standard of ref overall does not help. If the question is do I have faith that VAR in Scotland will be improved I'd probably say no.

It's never going to be run properly.

[rainbowrising]

On the assumption that it aint going away, what if we boil it down to some kind of cricket/NFL style thing where a manager has available 3 possible appeals in a game. I imagine it would boil down to mostly dodgy pens and the occasional very tight offside. The rest is the refs call. 

In cricket it isn't unusual to see teams blow all their appeals on crap decisions only to look on as a player should be out and they can do nothing about it, which is pretty much the old-school world most seem to want.