The New Raith Rovers Thread

[Raith Against The Machine]

The problem with a full academy system is that - and this is blindingly obvious - you need to have at least eleven players for every age group you want to be involved in. 

There's an element of it being a numbers game where the one success pays for the 20 who get released, but you're pouring huge amounts of time and resource into players who won't make the grade. 

You see it most starkly with the "Premier League 2" mobs down south. You're not telling me that after about age 15 anyone at Stoke City thought Ethon Varian would ever play first team football for them, but he's kept around because they've got to stick eleven boys on the park every week. It's basically an incubator system for the one or two who might make it, where they're surrounded by fifteen other kids who'll eventually be loaned out to try and get someone to give them a bag of bibs before their contract runs out aged 22.

From a cost base alone, it's increasingly compelling to just pick up boys who are ~18 years old and integrate them into the first team set up. To use a wild example, say Kai Montagu breaks into the first team later this season and gets 15 assists and 10 goals between January and the end of the year, someone will chuck a big bag of cash at us to get him. The difference it makes because we only signed him in the summer, versus having had him since he was 12, is negligible in terms of the income. There will be "training compensation" and probably a sell on to East Kilbride, but is that going to be more than you'd spend running full squads of kids for years and years, with the knowledge the best ones will probably be picked off before they make the first team anyway? I'm not so sure. 

[Been going too long]

1 hour ago, Broken Algorithms said:

Seems a very low risk move if we did go for him. The upside clubs like Thistle have had from the likes McBeth shows it's a market worth scouting. 

In all honesty, for all the aspirational chat of academies from the governing bodies I'd rather we were going out and picking up players like this. 

Pretty sure adams no 20 for Falkirk came from uni league , looked very accomplished on Saturday and Mcbeth done well at thistle, worth a punt 

[Been going too long]

1 hour ago, Raith Against The Machine said:

The problem with a full academy system is that - and this is blindingly obvious - you need to have at least eleven players for every age group you want to be involved in. 

There's an element of it being a numbers game where the one success pays for the 20 who get released, but you're pouring huge amounts of time and resource into players who won't make the grade. 

You see it most starkly with the "Premier League 2" mobs down south. You're not telling me that after about age 15 anyone at Stoke City thought Ethon Varian would ever play first team football for them, but he's kept around because they've got to stick eleven boys on the park every week. It's basically an incubator system for the one or two who might make it, where they're surrounded by fifteen other kids who'll eventually be loaned out to try and get someone to give them a bag of bibs before their contract runs out aged 22.

From a cost base alone, it's increasingly compelling to just pick up boys who are ~18 years old and integrate them into the first team set up. To use a wild example, say Kai Montagu breaks into the first team later this season and gets 15 assists and 10 goals between January and the end of the year, someone will chuck a big bag of cash at us to get him. The difference it makes because we only signed him in the summer, versus having had him since he was 12, is negligible in terms of the income. There will be "training compensation" and probably a sell on to East Kilbride, but is that going to be more than you'd spend running full squads of kids for years and years, with the knowledge the best ones will probably be picked off before they make the first team anyway? I'm not so sure. 

Totally agree hope we never have an academy, most lads are jersey fillers and had experience of this with my own son and lads he played with 

[Been going too long]

My sons pal goes to Herriot watt and Anton dowds played for them and is much lauded in their football teams with good reason so this lad maybe worth a punt

[MICMAC]

2 hours ago, CountryBumpkin said:

That music can never be excused.  Hard to really judge anything on clips as they're designed to highlight the good bits and thats it. 

I'd agree, certainly worth a low risk punt. 

I think academies work best when two things are present, a defined funding stream that doesn't put pressure on the first team and a clear strategy adopted by the clubs that doesn't change when a manager does. You look at the likes of Ajax, Barcelona etc, their academies are set in stone, they do what they do and it fits into the clubs philosophy easily. The community foundation is probably a good middle ground for us. Having Potter working with the coaching staff there to give them new ideas and improve their skills to provide a better experience for the kids. If we can get one or two from there every few years that has a genuine chance, great. 

He's a 3rd year student Sport and Exercise science Football scholar at Heriot watt Ex Hayes and Yeading United player age 22. Been in the rough and ready league (East of Scotland 1st div) for a couple of seasons. Not a bad strike rate in that league last season 14 goals in 25 games. HWFC are currently 3rd in the league, same as K&D.

[Broken Algorithms]

26 minutes ago, Been going too long said:

Pretty sure adams no 20 for Falkirk came from uni league , looked very accomplished on Saturday and Mcbeth done well at thistle, worth a punt 

He was at Cumbernauld Colts who were in the same league as where we got Kai Montagu. 

[Been going too long]

5 minutes ago, Broken Algorithms said:

He was at Cumbernauld Colts who were in the same league as where we got Kai Montagu. 

Great pick up for them, looks a good player 

[Broken Algorithms]

3 minutes ago, Been going too long said:

Great pick up for them, looks a good player 

Absolutely.  Still only 22 and it feels like just a matter of time before he's moving upwards.

[Raithie]

For some reason my YouTube algorithm suggested todays Falkirk Daft podcast - sha hoor sir 5 minutes in and it's tears everywhere about our social media team 

[pub car king]

3 minutes ago, Raithie said:

For some reason my YouTube algorithm suggested todays Falkirk Daft podcast - sha hoor sir 5 minutes in and it's tears everywhere about our social media team 

Mmm delicious 

[Enigma]

6 minutes ago, Raithie said:

For some reason my YouTube algorithm suggested todays Falkirk Daft podcast - sha hoor sir 5 minutes in and it's tears everywhere about our social media team 

Spitting feathers about a silly wee cartoon

[Broken Algorithms]

Just now, Raithie said:

For some reason my YouTube algorithm suggested todays Falkirk Daft podcast - sha hoor sir 5 minutes in and it's tears everywhere about our social media team 

Can definitely tell they weren't in for last season's Championship. If there's one person who probably won't care in the slightest about what's put on social media then it's John McGlynn. The whole podcast situation is good though: I've had a few interactions with the Falkirk Daft guys and really good blokes. Social media/podcasts are funny in that you'll always have a queue of people from the opposition keeping tabs on what's been said and giving it back. The Rovers "cartoons" are meant for Rovers fans, much in the same way if someone off of our podcast says they'd not take any Falkirk players, then people take it as a personal insult.  

From a tactical point of view, I thought it was interesting that they called out that we stifled both Tait and Spencer from having good games. For me, our best pressing player (Scott Brown) was barely on the pitch so if we've got him fully fit come December I'm optimistic it'll be more of the same. 

[Kooz92]

Didn't realise that we were still being served Falkirk Tears on Monday morning  Fantastic!

[Enigma]

2 minutes ago, Broken Algorithms said:

If there's one person who probably won't care in the slightest about what's put on social media then it's John McGlynn.

Yeah, even if he did the stuff about that being used as motivation for the players and manger in the next fixture was a laugh. Just ask McPake how putting our social media posts up on the changing room wall worked out for Dunfermline last season.

[CountryBumpkin]

14 minutes ago, Enigma said:

Spitting feathers about a silly wee cartoon

They should get that North West cretin on their podcast so they can all team up and cry about cartoons. Hilarious reaction from them. "McGlynn and the players will see that and think 'we're not having that'". I don't think I could take my manager seriously if thats what he tried to use as motivation for a game. 

[Varna Rover]

to hell with falkirk. still no new signing news today. the window closes at midnight

Edited September 30 by Varna Rover

[TxRover]

5 hours ago, Raith Against The Machine said:

The problem with a full academy system is that - and this is blindingly obvious - you need to have at least eleven players for every age group you want to be involved in. 

There's an element of it being a numbers game where the one success pays for the 20 who get released, but you're pouring huge amounts of time and resource into players who won't make the grade. 

You see it most starkly with the "Premier League 2" mobs down south. You're not telling me that after about age 15 anyone at Stoke City thought Ethon Varian would ever play first team football for them, but he's kept around because they've got to stick eleven boys on the park every week. It's basically an incubator system for the one or two who might make it, where they're surrounded by fifteen other kids who'll eventually be loaned out to try and get someone to give them a bag of bibs before their contract runs out aged 22.

From a cost base alone, it's increasingly compelling to just pick up boys who are ~18 years old and integrate them into the first team set up. To use a wild example, say Kai Montagu breaks into the first team later this season and gets 15 assists and 10 goals between January and the end of the year, someone will chuck a big bag of cash at us to get him. The difference it makes because we only signed him in the summer, versus having had him since he was 12, is negligible in terms of the income. There will be "training compensation" and probably a sell on to East Kilbride, but is that going to be more than you'd spend running full squads of kids for years and years, with the knowledge the best ones will probably be picked off before they make the first team anyway? I'm not so sure. 

It’s interesting to see how relegation and promotion may just be somewhat stifling some player development (disclaimer, despite liking the development aspects of the U.S. farm team system, still prefer relegation/promotion). U.S. MLB (Major League Baseball) is the best example of this phenomenon, as they churn through huge numbers of players to find the quality. Each team has “affiliates” at several different levels of the professional game (AAA, AA, High-A, Low-A and Rookie). You could rough compare these to Scottish Premiership->EoS/WoS et al, and be reasonably correct.

A vertically integrated club structure could work in the UK, but would never be acceptable because of relegation/promotion being a backbone of the system. That being said, perhaps allowing a little closer association with clubs at the lower levels, if not through ownership, at least with come form of support or assistance agreements might bring some benefits both ways. Certainly, if the Rovers could work more closely with teams such as K&D and the Shippy, it might provide some element of player development…but SPFL regulations clear muzzle that option. Of course, the current player registration rules also most neuter the options there too, some some loosening would be necessary.

[CountryBumpkin]

1 hour ago, Varna Rover said:

to hell with falkirk. still no new signing news today. the window closes at midnight

Only the loan window I believe. Free Agents can still be picked up whenever.

 

5 minutes ago, TxRover said:

It’s interesting to see how relegation and promotion may just be somewhat stifling some player development (disclaimer, despite liking the development aspects of the U.S. farm team system, still prefer relegation/promotion). U.S. MLB (Major League Baseball) is the best example of this phenomenon, as they churn through huge numbers of players to find the quality. Each team has “affiliates” at several different levels of the professional game (AAA, AA, High-A, Low-A and Rookie). You could rough compare these to Scottish Premiership->EoS/WoS et al, and be reasonably correct.

A vertically integrated club structure could work in the UK, but would never be acceptable because of relegation/promotion being a backbone of the system. That being said, perhaps allowing a little closer association with clubs at the lower levels, if not through ownership, at least with come form of support or assistance agreements might bring some benefits both ways. Certainly, if the Rovers could work more closely with teams such as K&D and the Shippy, it might provide some element of player development…but SPFL regulations clear muzzle that option. Of course, the current player registration rules also most neuter the options there too, some some loosening would be necessary.

This is what the B team proposal was all about, but its not taken off at all, for right reasons. They do this in the Netherlands where a few sides have B teams in the lower leagues, similar in Spain too.

[edinburghrover]

I took in Tynecastle  Vs Hill of Beath Hawthorn in the Scottish Cup 1st round at Meggatland on Friday night, both in the EOS Premier, the one above HW Uni currently. 

Close up the standard looked ok, but you could tell it was much below the Championship in terms of technique  and stamina -  there wasn't anyone who I'd have said was taking a punt on in that game. 

Edited September 30 by edinburghrover

[buchan30]

1 hour ago, CountryBumpkin said:

They should get that North West cretin on their podcast so they can all team up and cry about cartoons. Hilarious reaction from them. "McGlynn and the players will see that and think 'we're not having that'". I don't think I could take my manager seriously if thats what he tried to use as motivation for a game. 

Did Mcpake not do something along the same lines as that last season?