Lets All Laugh At Rangers Thread

[RandomGuy.]

thepundits correct here. £50m can't get them challenging for the Championship, but £5m will get them challenging Celtic.

[dave.j]

In fairness, 5 million could have Thistle challenging Celtic.

Just because they use the name "rangers" doesn't mean they have the divine right to fantasy.

[dave.j]

Or going back to my previous post - Time to bring through the youngsters and persevere with them!

This chat of Rangers spending £5m is nonsense. Overspending what they haven't got and do not need to spend is what killed the old club. How any Rangers employee or even any Rangers fan can still think that chucking money away on complete duds and has-beens is the way forward I have no idea.

Hearts are going to win the championship with a good squad predominantly made up of young players brought through the system, with the odd loan deal and shoestring budget signing. They were in a financial mess, cut their losses and have made a good foundation to re-build the club on and off the pitch.

Rangers would be doing very well to follow suit.

Only difference is, Hearts don't think the only measure of success is competing with celtic.

Just look at my signature.

[kildog]

Which the fans won't stand for. Because they want to pretend they're still a big club.

I remember them.

Cheats?

Sectarianism and cheating. That's what I'll always associate with the dead club...

It's a pity Sevco weren't able to remove themselves from that association.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

In fairness, 5 million could have Thistle challenging Celtic.

Just because they use the name "rangers" doesn't mean they have the divine right to fantasy.

It really, really wouldn't A few exceptions aside, us diddy clubs (which now very much includes Rangers) spending big bucks on transfers has practically always been a total failure. Apart from the likes of Stokes, who by all accounts was bought on the implicit understandng of us flipping him in one year, all the examples coming to mind have been disastrous. Beslija, Alan O'Brian, etc. The only way to buy success so to speak, is to pay good players ridiculous wages to play in Scotland, which would cost a shit lot more than £5m.

As a bit of fun, why doesn't somebody who thinks their club could compete with Celtic by spending £5 give us fantasy football style run down of how they'd like to see it spent? And if you're a Rangers fan, don't say "well I'd expect the club to know more than me" because the club's scouting system clearly involves reading The Daily Record every day, so your shortlist is as good as anyone's.

[FinnesTON]

I wouldn't agree with that. Aberdeen have done well but I don't think they've been anything more than a solid B+ Player in a one team league.

You're right when you say though that a great team can be put together on a shoe-string budget. But that method almost always ends in failure so it would be a risky strategy for Rangers. And, despite all McInnes has done, he's still failed too, if we're talking credible title challenges.

It's only my opinion, but £5m shouldn't be out of the question. To put it into perspective in terms of Rangers, Walter spent nearly £20m in the summer of 2007 when he needed to build a team to replace Le Guen's players.

We don't need any encouragement in laughing at Sevco.

Ranjurz Media for this pish.

[dave.j]

It really, really wouldn't A few exceptions aside, us diddy clubs (which now very much includes Rangers) spending big bucks on transfers has practically always been a total failure. Apart from the likes of Stokes, who by all accounts was bought on the implicit understandng of us flipping him in one year, all the examples coming to mind have been disastrous. Beslija, Alan O'Brian, etc. The only way to buy success so to speak, is to pay good players ridiculous wages to play in Scotland, which would cost a shit lot more than £5m.

As a bit of fun, why doesn't somebody who thinks their club could compete with Celtic by spending £5 give us fantasy football style run down of how they'd like to see it spent? And if you're a Rangers fan, don't say "well I'd expect the club to know more than me" because the club's scouting system clearly involves reading The Daily Record every day, so your shortlist is as good as anyone's.

I didn't mention spending any of it on transfer fees.

You know that 5m would get you 20 players on 5k a week, right?

I'd be interested to know what Aberdeen's budget is for their first team squad.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

I didn't mention spending any of it on transfer fees.

You know that 5m would get you 20 players on 5k a week, right?

I'd be interested to know what Aberdeen's budget is for their first team squad.

The only figures I can find on page 1 of a Google search are from a few years ago but it had Celtic's wage budget as £33m a year and the non-OF clubs (apart from Hearts, who tried throwing millions at competing for the league and got nowhere near) on about £2-6m.

Even in this hypothetical scenario, the club with £5m to splooge would need to find a bunch of title winning level players that were prepared to sign one year deals, or the actual cost would be far, far more.

I'm not sure if I'm being whooshed here tbh £5m to compete for the league, absolute bollocks

[Thistle_do_nicely]

I didn't mention spending any of it on transfer fees.

You know that 5m would get you 20 players on 5k a week, right?

I'd be interested to know what Aberdeen's budget is for their first team squad.

Are Aberdeen really competing with Celtic, though? I'd argue they are competing with the likes of Dundee Utd, personally, where they are doing very well, but ultimately no one else has the means to compete with them within Scotland.

I take "competing with Celtic" as meaning spending a very similar amount (+/- a very low percentage) to them on playing/coaching staff. £5million would get you competing with the Aberdeen's and Utd's in Scotland, it would take vastly more than that to compete with Celtic. Even then, there's plenty of other factors you'd have to consider - an investment may not get an immediate return, you're relying on all the money being put in being used efficiently, you're assuming Celtic won't increase their investment based on what you're doing etc. etc.

All of which goes to show that the business plan in your sig is absolute insanity for Rangers* to follow, of course - when you're struggling to compete with Cowdenbeath and Alloa, spending the sums they have (edit: just have to add this - when you're relatively struggling against part-time sides or sides on near enough the minimum wage ), what chance do you have of competing with Celtic in the medium-long term? What guarantee is there that Celtic won't simply outmuscle you financially (which they *will* be able to do, considering Dave King doesn't seem to have a pot to piss in) If the talk is of "competing with Celtic" but the side are clearly nowhere near that, how long can they keep paying fans happy (after all, "competing with Celtic" is Rangers* whole raison d'etre, according to the glib and shameless one)?

Edited March 21, 2015 by Thistle_do_nicely

[Monkey Tennis]

What part of "running at a considerable loss" don't you understand? Or are you expecting King or the 3 Bears to pick up the tab?

I think we can very safely say that thepundit understands virtually nothing.

[MattBairn]

On the surface of things I can totally see why an opposition fan would think that McCall did a fantastic job with us and indeed his record in the league was very good, no one can seriously deny him that. However if you look a bit closer you see that there were many shortcomings in McCall's time as Motherwell manager and I view his period in charge - a time when Rangers went out the game, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen were at historically weak levels - as a massive missed opportunity for us to win a trophy, but we failed time and again in very winnable cup ties thanks to some baffling tactical decisions and poor preparation by McCall. He was a good guy for keeping us ticking over in the league over the course of a season during his first two full seasons but show him a big, pressure game and nine times out of ten he and the team fell short an let us down.

Another major criticism I had of McCall was that he had a fairly short sighted approach when it came to signings and bringing through youth players, something which is crucial to a club like Motherwell as we rely on developing young talent and selling it on. In summer 2013 McCall failed miserably to rebuild the squad and signed a batch of unimaginative dross such as Vigurs, Lawson, McManus and Nielsen and as such we were awful for large spells last season but carried enormous slices of luck throughout and amazingly managed to grab a 2nd placed finish. However this season, that luck deserted us and McCall was finally found out for the poor manager that many Motherwell fans always knew he was. The preparation for this season was nothing short of amateurish, including our pre-season jolly to Portugal which masqueraded as a team building exercise - the squad did manage to get in some much needed foot golf practice mind - whilst other clubs were preparing properly for the season, and then McCall in his wisdom handed out two year deals to three aging players. By the time he chucked it in November, we were languishing near the foot of the table with a squad devoid of confidence, fitness and direction and McCall left us in a far worse state than when he took over.

McCall seems to place a great emphasis on a content, happy squad, rather than a fit and disciplined one and if the locals down Ibrox think that this man is going to get them back to the top then they are in for an almighty shock.

It just goes to show how different it can look from supporters of the team to other fans on the outside looking in. I thought he had done a great job with yous.

[Monkey Tennis]

It just goes to show how different it can look from supporters of the team to other fans on the outside looking in. I thought he had done a great job with yous.

It's true.

I'd also have said, on the basis of a fairly superficial glance that McCall had been great for Motherwell. Those that take a far deeper interest however, are able to provide a more detailed, nuanced and accurate picture.

Something similar happened when Gordon Chisholm's reputation soared with us, while many Queens supporters knew him as the limited dud he's since proved himself to be.

I'm interested in the bit about McCall valuing a relaxed, happy camp, over a disciplined, focused one. It sounds exactly link the type of criticism that was levelled at McCoist. I'd have thought that a complete change in that direction was needed.

It'll be interesting to see how McCall does if he gets a decent run at the job.

[shizzlemanizzle]

I have just had a big soft number 2. I know Rangers are aiming to be a solid number 2 but beggars can't be choosers and I am quite happy to donate my soft number 2.

[shull]

THE WARCHEST IS FUCKING BEREFT OF FUNDS

[capt_oats]

I'm interested in the bit about McCall valuing a relaxed, happy camp, over a disciplined, focused one. It sounds exactly link the type of criticism that was levelled at McCoist. I'd have thought that a complete change in that direction was needed. It'll be interesting to see how McCall does if he gets a decent run at the job.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that, though he's nowhere near as inept as McCoist, McCall's definitely cut from the same cloth. He has a lack of faith in youth structures, is generally in thrall to "big" names and when it comes down to it, tactically he's fairly limited. Like McCoist he's also a "Ranjurz man" whose experience of success there was simply to chuck money they didn't have at the team and buy in players rather than develop them themselves. I'd also suggest that he's equally confused as to why these teams in the Championship aren't simply lying down to them on the "journey" on their way back to their "rightful place in Scottish football".

I'm probably being quite reductive here but as MJC pointed out earlier in this thread, our pre-season pretty much consisted of a jolly to Portugal and there were some really interesting comments from our new owner in his interview on the Motherwell podcast earlier this week, along the lines of him being surprised at the players lack of fitness and a clear lack of structure when he arrived at the club. That's directly attributable to McCall and Black, indeed it's telling that since we've cut Black loose and appointed new coaches at Fir Park our form and performances have improved markedly and suddenly we seem to be playing the sort of football the new manager said he wanted to play when he arrived but anyway, I digress.

Everyone seems to focus on McCall's league record with Motherwell and I suppose that's understandable given that it's the big selling point of his CV however given it's apparently the case that he's only at Ibrox til the end of the season and his remit is to get the best out the players that are there in the remaining fixtures it's a bit of a moot point. In that respect, for me, his fairly dismal cup record is much more pertinent to the situation he finds himself in now. I've said this about him on various threads but my main issue with McCall (beyond his teams lying down to Oldco Rangers and Newco for that matter) was that he seemed totally incapable of motivating his teams to play above themselves.

For examples see the Scottish Cup final vs. Celtic where we didn't really turn up (3-0 loss, 1 attempt on target, 1 attempt off target, 38% vs 62% possession) and the various European ties against the likes of Panathinaikos (5-0 agg defeat), Levante (2-0 defeat at home, 3-0 agg), Kuban Krasnador (2-0 defeat at home, 3-0 agg), Stjarnan (5-4 agg, having led 2-0 in home leg & been up twice away), then you start looking at cup defeats to Albion Rovers and the 3rd division incarnation of Sevco along with a few cup exits at the first time of asking. You could also point to his record in the league against Oldco Rangers, 1 point from 18 and a 17-1 aggregate.

Over the course of a league season (save this current one) McCall proved to be a decent enough manager for Motherwell however put him in game where his team needed to play above themselves or simply needed to win then more often than not he came up short. At the time I had a suspicion that him walking away from Fir Park when he did was less the noble act he painted it as and was more a strategic move as he saw that the possibility of the Sevco job on the horizon. However, who knows, maybe he genuinely didn't know how to fix the shambles he'd created at Fir Park.

Edited March 21, 2015 by capt_oats

[GreenockRover]

Since I don't feel like going to bed, let's have a look at what that 20 million got you

Kevin Thomson - 2 mil (A good signing that had value in terms of the player Thomson was at the time and which ultimately got value back as he went to Middlesbrough for the same price)

DaMarcus Beasley - .7 mil (A relatively negligible amount of money and one that was largely repaid, even if he was injured a lot. His performance away to Lyon alone probably brought that back)

Carlos Cuellar - 2.37 mil (A good signing and sold on for profit - something that Scottish clubs should do, as Celtic have done with players in recent years, it remains to be seen what would happen if Rangers did it on a regular basis. If I remember right Cuellar was one of the few that was sold on for a profit like that, and it didn't go down well)

Lee McCulloch - 2.25 mil (Every penny well-spent, I'm sure everyone will agree)

Steven Whittaker - 2 mil (see Thomson regarding his stature at the time, can't say much for the fee he brought in since he left after liquidation)

Steven Naismith - 1.9 mil (the same, though I'd say he was better on the pitch than Whittaker)

Daniel Cousin - 1.1 mil (From what I recall he probably falls into the Beasley camp in that his European performances probably paid for that - but this isn't something Rangers are going to be able to get anything out of in the next what, three years at best? five years even for the CL?)

And since they only total 10 million, the shite he spent money on in 2008, since the job to rebuild the team after Le Guen got hounded out for not delivering instant success:

Andy Webster - .45 mil (What an odd situation that was)

Kenny Miller - 2 mil (Probably paid that back, although again, no re-sell value)

Andrius Velicka - 1 mil ( )

Kyle Lafferty - 3.25 mil ( :lol: :lol:)

Madjid Bougherra - 2.5 mil (a Cuellar replacement who probably could have been sold on like he was, there was some good had from him signing)

Pedro Mendes - 3 mil (3 mil? really?)

Steven Davis - 3 mil (was good, and could easily have commanded that and more back in transfers but for liquidation, think he falls under just being a product of a different time, a thought we'll return to later)

Maurice Edu - 2.6 mil (I remember when this signing happened, there was unrest outside Ibrox over... something, it was before a game then this guy gets wheeled ut and they all shut up. Money well spent, indeed).

Now in fairness, around 11.5 million of that second lot was funded by the sales of Cuellar and Cousin (he for 3.5 million as a 31 year old, somehow) and it's important to remember that there was some level of involvement in the Champions League from Rangers throughout that time, but all this does is reinforce that this is completely non-existent right now. The one player Rangers had with any sellable value was Lewis Macleod, who was out the door at the first opportunity. Potentially to keep the wolves from the door for another week. I've no doubt if Rangers were any more stable at the time they would have kept him, but they didn't. There's going to be no European income from several years, and getting to the Champions League is going to be harder than ever for all Scottish clubs.

Rangers need, for their own sake, to return to some level of success. Throwing money at the team to make this happen, as was the case in the past, is not only completely unfeasible now owing to the completely different circumstances from then and now but is completely impossible in Scottish football. The money that you want and that I've no doubt countless others want in increasingly unrealistic amounts, cannot exist. There will need to be an initial investment of some sort, of course, but to rely on this as a means of instantly improving the team on the park, and then the standing of the club, misses the point of where investment is actually required so spectacularly I can't imagine any Rangers fan has ever actually been able to understand what happened to Rangers over the past twenty years. They spent money they didn't have, on maintaining the team in a way that wasn't possible, to appease a fanbase out of touch with reality (and in comparing the reaction to impending doom of Rangers and Hearts fans, a largely apathetic fanbase), and it fucked them.

If I was Dave King, or someone with a better tax record or illusion of trustworthiness that didn't see my millions stand idly by while a clown car of charlatans rolled up to drain the club he loved so dearly I would sit at a press conference and say the things that would happen while I was in that position. Think Fergus McCann, only with more bored contempt for the people he was addressing. The thing that needs to happen for Rangers, that would be best for Rangers and best for Scottish footballers as far as a club with such resources should be providing Scotland with more than it has and does, is for them to be ruled with a completely non-Rangers man. A man who can see past all the bluster and shite about rightful places, about what they deserve and say, no. It can't happen. This is how to be successful, this is what we're going to do, and if you care about this club as much as you say you do you'll shut up and deal with it.

This would have the added bonus of possibly driving out some knuckle dragging hangers-on of its own doing, rather than having me needing to say "and if you start singing about ******s during a game I'm pulling the team off the park myself," but I digress.

We've seen various clubs the world over survive financial hardships of different sizes and types, hell we've seen how to do it properly in our own country. Yet this doesn't seem to be the most pressing thing that Rangers fans want, or think they need. And to return to the topic of this thread, that's quite funny, since I don't have any emotional investment in it.

This then....This now......This forever..

[Elixir]

lol

[Myview]

Very interesting comments from the Motherwell fans and as we say we will have to wait and see how McCall does. Without saying too much it is certainly not easy to deal with pro players everyone of them are different and difficult. Getting the balance right is probably impossible! This is not getting at Delia or Brown but proving how difficult it is... Delia has spoken all season about fitness and healthy eating but 4 days before a cup final Scotland and his captain Brown goes out excessive alcohol and fast food! Unbelievable! Would Andy Murray, Chris Hoy or Charlie Flynn even think about it?! I agree man management is a major part of the remit just ask Butcher or Malpas in fact don't waste your time!

[cyderspaceman]

Or going back to my previous post - Time to bring through the youngsters and persevere with them!

This chat of Rangers spending £5m is nonsense. Overspending what they haven't got and do not need to spend is what killed the old club. How any Rangers employee or even any Rangers fan can still think that chucking money away on complete duds and has-beens is the way forward I have no idea.

Hearts are going to win the championship with a good squad predominantly made up of young players brought through the system, with the odd loan deal and shoestring budget signing. They were in a financial mess, cut their losses and have made a good foundation to re-build the club on and off the pitch.

Rangers would be doing very well to follow suit.

Just to remind us all that this, allied to tactical ineptitude, meant that McCoist squandered any chance The New Rangers had of being successful.

[banana]

rapundit trying to slither back in unnoticed