git-intae-thum Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, AyrExile said: They didn’t want every fact and figure just a few more than we’re provided. Look at how the Brexit shambles has turned out and exactly the reason why people should be provided with as much info as possible to judge. Having now witnessed parts of Brexit and the complexities of leaving a forty year old union, I’m surprised you think leaving a 300 odd year old one would be a formality No one suggests it will be a formality. I can understand folk being wary, but it is a question of common sense. To remain in the UK is slow economic decline in a divided nation, where the people of Scotland will forever suffer a democratic misrepresentation. It may help to look for comparison at other similar sized North European economies, with similar sized or higher public sector spend than Scotland and no where near the resource or positive balance of trade that we enjoy. They do not run huge deficits and yet we apparently do. Funny that. Explanation in my previous post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyrExile Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 38 minutes ago, Antlion said: Do you mean they want fantasy figures emblazoned across the side of a bus and accompanied by the jingoistic witterings of their semi-feudal lord and masters? That seemed to be a defining factor in the cult of UK nationalism winning the last referendum on these isles. And old people couldn’t get enough of it. Perhaps the elderly Scots are just more canny 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 2 hours ago, RedRob72 said: fortunate enough to have taken the opportunities that have arisen since the days of high unemployment in the late 70’s early 80’s. Just a point - there was no high unemployment in the late seventies, it was 5.4% in 1979. By contrast it was 11.5% by 1983. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, AyrExile said: Because it’s not happened yet Don't be silly, lots of countries have become independent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakedee Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Because it’s not happened yet So, because Scotland has not yet become independent, it is seen as a gamble, forgetting of course that many other Countries have done so, with varying degrees of success. Yet none of them have returned to "dependance". Yup still confused. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 It's a gamble as we're obviously too thick to run our own affairs, Cameron, Osborne, Boris, May, Blair, Corbyn etc are all obviously far more intelligent than anyone we can produce up here. As a nation, we were obviously just very lucky to produce all the inventors and innovators of the past. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, AyrExile said: Perhaps the elderly Scots are just more canny That’s a pretty divisive suggestion to make. Edited December 21, 2018 by Antlion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, jakedee said: Can someone please explain why Scotland being independent is any more of a gamble than any other Country running it's own affairs. That one seems to have passed me by. I agreee - but provided we can remain in the EU. You only have to look across the Irish Sea to observe how well our neighbours have done since they became independent. To the best of my knowledge they've never asked to be reunited with the UK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, AyrExile said: Perhaps the elderly Scots are just more canny Nah, most are the least informed and most shit feart in Scotland, anyone that's driven by the headlines of the MSM can't be that bright, hope to be proved wrong but as of now I've witnessed very little intelligence or interest from over 65's other than if they're winning or losing a quid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyrExile Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: Don't be silly, lots of countries have become independent. Of course they have. We may end up better off or worse off once it’s happened. Until that day it’s a bigger risk -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 18 minutes ago, AyrExile said: They didn’t want every fact and figure just a few more than we’re provided. Look at how the Brexit shambles has turned out and exactly the reason why people should be provided with as much info as possible to judge. Having now witnessed parts of Brexit and the complexities of leaving a forty year old union, I’m surprised you think leaving a 300 odd year old one would be a formality Not a formality, but it's a mistake to think that the two sets of negotiations would be similar. The EU negotiations involve unpicking a great number of overlapping laws and treaties, with the EU protecting it's 27 members competing concerns (for example, the very specialised needs of the Irish), and it's own integrity, more than that the entire shitshow really only comes from the UK's side, that government's complete inability to work out what it wants, let alone whether those wants are compatible with the EU's own position. The dissolution of the British Union on the other hand concerns one very old law and two parties. The majority of trade deals and negotiations would be arrived at by the nature of an independent Scotland's status in Europe. Meanwhile the fact that it involves the dissolution of a state, rather than one state leaving a supranational organisation means that the division of assets and liabilities is more of a live issue and one where, the smaller party involved has a bit more leverage than the UK has with the EU (Think Faslane, for example). Finally, any future Scottish independence referendum will be conducted on much clearer lines of what is expected of independence, rather than baseless slogans on buses. It is fairly obvious to me that unlike the current UK government, ScotGov would not be paralysed by it's own divisions in any future negotiations. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, AyrExile said: Of course they have. We may end up better off or worse off once it’s happened. Until that day it’s a bigger risk Bigger risk how? Surely the risk is broadly the same if not better because of our favourable position compared to the Warsaw Pact countries and ex-Soviet nations? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakedee Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Of course they have. We may end up better off or worse off once it’s happened. Until that day it’s a bigger risk The risk is not whether we end up better or worse off than them, it's whether we end up worse off than we are now. I think it takes a special kind of stupid to think we would be in the long term. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 1 minute ago, jakedee said: 5 minutes ago, AyrExile said: Of course they have. We may end up better off or worse off once it’s happened. Until that day it’s a bigger risk The risk is not whether we end up better or worse off than them, it's whether we end up worse off than we are now. I think it takes a special kind of stupid to think we would be in the long term. Unfortunately we've got more than our fair share of "special" people with influence in Scotland. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyrExile Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: Bigger risk how? Surely the risk is broadly the same if not better because of our favourable position compared to the Warsaw Pact countries and ex-Soviet nations? Any number of outside and unpredictable factors can affect the end result. See above for in/out Eu. Until any process is complete I would say uncertainty increases risk 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyrExile Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, jakedee said: 13 minutes ago, AyrExile said: Of course they have. We may end up better off or worse off once it’s happened. Until that day it’s a bigger risk The risk is not whether we end up better or worse off than them, it's whether we end up worse off than we are now. I think it takes a special kind of stupid to think we would be in the long term. That sounds similar to an arguement for Brexit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Just now, AyrExile said: Any number of outside and unpredictable factors can affect the end result. See above for in/out Eu. Until any process is complete I would say uncertainty increases risk Balls. The biggest risk for Scotland is Brexit. In comparison, independence would be a cakewalk. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, AyrExile said: Any number of outside and unpredictable factors can affect the end result. See above for in/out Eu. Until any process is complete I would say uncertainty increases risk We'd still be up trees if risks weren't taken. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakedee Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 That sounds similar to an arguement for Brexit No it's not, I think it's fairly certain we'll be worse off after brexit, short, medium and long term. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyrExile Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: Balls. The biggest risk for Scotland is Brexit. In comparison, independence would be a cakewalk. Without a doubt Brexit is also a risk factor for Scotland and predicting the future. As we currently have 4 times the trade with Uk than Eu then not sure why independence would be any easier 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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