What is the point of Labour ?

[DA Baracus]

48 hours! Get fucked so far with that.

38 hours is far too much. 5 days is far too much.

There should be a massive push to a 4 day week to start.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

10 hours ago, Detournement said:

What a bunch of arseholes the Starmerites are. 

god that's demoralising, just a bland "keep running faster to stand still guys!" message.

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

A 48 hour week and 'the right for rest breaks' wow that's radical.

 

In 1820.

[Highlandmagar]

I'm sure that 48 hour week us in relation to the EU working directive of a person does not have to work MORE than 48 hours per week unless they opt out. In comparison to the Tories who want to abolish it and make it legal for companies to whip you to death while working on the plantation.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

If Labour are wanting to protect a 48 hour working week then what are the Tories trying to set it at?

Taking away people’s holiday pay and blaming the EU would be classic England.

[renton]

6 hours ago, Carnoustie Young Guvnor said:

A 48 hour week and 'the right for rest breaks' wow that's radical.

 

In 1820.

Next thing you know they'll come out against the practice of child labour.

[Bully Wee Villa]

I'm not really sure why the Tories being b*****ds on working rights is a stick to beat Labour with.

[BFTD]

On 18/01/2021 at 22:11, GordonS said:

Blair's win was everything to do with the perception among the electorate that he would run the economy like a benevolent Tory.

I got the impression that the original landslide was because traditional Labour voters were desperate for someone, anyone wearing a red rosette to get into No.10, and middle England was sick of being constantly reminded that, behind closed doors, the Tories were running bacchanalian orgies that would put Tiberius to shame, all while banging on endlessly about Family Values.

Even Major gave up and got wired in to Edwina bloody Currie, which was probably about as chaste an option that they had without being asked in to central office for a chat.

[Dunning1874]

14 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

I'm not really sure why the Tories being b*****ds on working rights is a stick to beat Labour with.

Labour's message in response to the Tories being b*****ds isn't "we'll make things better" it's "we'll keep things shite and continue to make them worse, just not as quickly as they do."

We all know Tories are b*****ds. Deliberately making people's lives worse is their entire political purpose and always has been, so this isn't a surprise. Labour are supposed to be better than this. That they aren't also isn't a surprise.

[HTG]

Just as an aside, the working time directive is a sham for a huge number of people. My daughter spent a few weeks working with Amazon at the end of last year through an agency. In an agency environment you can be picked up or dropped out at a moment's notice and she was asked to sign an opt out on the directive as part of the process. Naturally enough, she signed it because had she not done so, it's unlikely she'd ever have seen the inside of the building. 

Amazon were decent enough employers as far as her experience goes tbf. 

[Bully Wee Villa]

2 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

Labour's message in response to the Tories being b*****ds isn't "we'll make things better" it's "we'll keep things shite and continue to make them worse, just not as quickly as they do."

We all know Tories are b*****ds. Deliberately making people's lives worse is their entire political purpose and always has been, so this isn't a surprise. Labour are supposed to be better than this. That they aren't also isn't a surprise.

But they are better than the party they're opposing. The purpose of the Tweet is to highlight said differences. And, as far as I know, Scotland has a 48 hour working week so the SNP hasn't done any better. Happy to be corrected.

I'm hugely in favour of reducing working hours but, pragmatically, a time when many people are so bored at home that some actually enjoy working as something  to keep themselves occupied might not be the best time to start shouting about it if you want to gain positive press.

In any case such a policy would, I imagine, have to be discussed at (a presumably virtual) Conference. They shouldn't just make party policy up to gain retweets, they're not Donald Trump.

I'm slightly to the left of Lenin, and would be quite happy if Starmer fucked off sharpish. But Labour get slagged off for not opposing Tory cuntery so I won't comdemn him when he does so.

[J_Stewart]

24 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

But they are better than the party they're opposing. The purpose of the Tweet is to highlight said differences. And, as far as I know, Scotland has a 48 hour working week so the SNP hasn't done any better. Happy to be corrected.

I'm hugely in favour of reducing working hours but, pragmatically, a time when many people are so bored at home that some actually enjoy working as something  to keep themselves occupied might not be the best time to start shouting about it if you want to gain positive press.

In any case such a policy would, I imagine, have to be discussed at (a presumably virtual) Conference. They shouldn't just make party policy up to gain retweets, they're not Donald Trump.

I'm slightly to the left of Lenin, and would be quite happy if Starmer fucked off sharpish. But Labour get slagged off for not opposing Tory cuntery so I won't comdemn him when he does so.

My problem with it is less the intent, and more the DOSAC style ineptitude in the delivery of the message, which not only leaves the purpose of the tweet open to interpretation, but also offers zero reason for optimism whatsoever.

If they'd presented it as "The Tories have removed your right to live and learn in the EU and now they want to take away your working rights here too, but we'll not only fight for your rights to sick pay, holiday leave, working breaks and a work life balance, but actively try to improve them" then they'd have provided a clear, concise message which could get working / middle class people engaged, have them questioning the tories, and have them backing a policy which would directly affect them. Instead, what they've done is put out a muddled statement which could be read as them suggesting a 48 hour working week, when the majority already work less than this. It's absolutely fucking useless and further feeds in to the malaise around the party. A statement which just screams of that @internethippo tweet with thousands of people holding hands, chanting "Better Things aren't Possible" at the centrist rally. 

[Bully Wee Villa]

Maybe. But it is concise and has emojis and I think that's how you "win" political debate on social media, sadly.

[Granny Danger]

Labour has three big problems:

1.  the biggest part of the U.K. (England) has an electorate that is largely centre/centre right;

2.  the FPTP voting system is inherently unfair and disproportionately benefits the Tories; and

3.  they are stuck in the past in terms of modes of governance.

Starmer’s objective is to be PM at all costs and Labour’s next manifesto will reflect what is seen as winnable rather than what is needed in society.

The single most important thing Labour could do to protect future generations against the worst excesses of Tory rule would be to scrap FPTP, however it simply will not happen.

 

[invergowrie arab]

More powers ship has sailed lads 

 

[Fullerene]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

Labour has three big problems:

1.  the biggest part of the U.K. (England) has an electorate that is largely centre/centre right;

2.  the FPTP voting system is inherently unfair and disproportionately benefits the Tories; and

3.  they are stuck in the past in terms of modes of governance.

Starmer’s objective is to be PM at all costs and Labour’s next manifesto will reflect what is seen as winnable rather than what is needed in society.

The single most important thing Labour could do to protect future generations against the worst excesses of Tory rule would be to scrap FPTP, however it simply will not happen.

 

The first point is linked to the second one.  Under FPTP the Tories keep winning UK elections  and thus define the narrative to such an extent that some people see them as the natural party of government.

If Labour won under FPTP they would be reluctant to scrap something that just helped them to win.

Their big objection is that PR leads to coalition government.  Instead the Labour Party itself ends up being a coalition in itself and often at loggerheads about the direction it should take.

[GordonS]

4 hours ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

But they are better than the party they're opposing. The purpose of the Tweet is to highlight said differences. And, as far as I know, Scotland has a 48 hour working week so the SNP hasn't done any better. Happy to be corrected.

 

Employment law is reserved.

[NotThePars]

I'm slightly to the left of Lenin, and would be quite happy if Starmer fucked off sharpish. But Labour get slagged off for not opposing Tory cuntery so I won't comdemn him when he does so.

No you’re not. Don’t talk rubbish. The kind Vladimir Ilyich would have had everyone here shot.

[Detournement]

5 hours ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

But they are better than the party they're opposing. The purpose of the Tweet is to highlight said differences. And, as far as I know, Scotland has a 48 hour working week so the SNP hasn't done any better. Happy to be corrected.

I'm hugely in favour of reducing working hours but, pragmatically, a time when many people are so bored at home that some actually enjoy working as something  to keep themselves occupied might not be the best time to start shouting about it if you want to gain positive press.

In any case such a policy would, I imagine, have to be discussed at (a presumably virtual) Conference. They shouldn't just make party policy up to gain retweets, they're not Donald Trump.

I'm slightly to the left of Lenin, and would be quite happy if Starmer fucked off sharpish. But Labour get slagged off for not opposing Tory cuntery so I won't comdemn him when he does so.

Did you not vote for Starmer?

Reducing the working week would actually increase the number of people with real jobs (as opposed to fake self employment and gig economy). 

Tbh I don't think the Tories will go after the 48 hour week as there are already exemptions and companies that aren't using them are doing so because it isn't efficient. The 21st century carrot/stick is having lots of workers competing for limited hours or pressurising workers to work at home for free. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Detournement

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, Fullerene said:

The first point is linked to the second one.  Under FPTP the Tories keep winning UK elections  and thus define the narrative to such an extent that some people see them as the natural party of government.

If Labour won under FPTP they would be reluctant to scrap something that just helped them to win.

Their big objection is that PR leads to coalition government.  Instead the Labour Party itself ends up being a coalition in itself and often at loggerheads about the direction it should take.

I accept all that’s why I made point 3.  If Labour do not accept that coalition government is a better mode of government than almost permanent opposition then it’s the latter that they’ll face.

If they gave a shit about people they would recognise that the ability of the Tories to devastate people’s lives would be drastically reduced with the introduction of some system of PR.

FWIW it’s been over 25 years since I was active in the Labour Party and the PR debate was ongoing then.