Chasing VAR out of Scotland

[DiegoDiego]

4 minutes ago, Dirty Sanchez said:

Chat GPT could surely do a better job presenting Sportsound than Kenny Mac.

You

Write a short transcript of a radio programme about Scottish football hosted by a journalist, where four former players talk about last weekend's results.

 

 

ChatGPT

[Radio Programme: Scottish Football Roundup]

Host: Welcome, everyone, to another edition of Scottish Football Roundup. I'm your host, [Host's Name], and today we have a fantastic lineup of former football legends joining us to dissect the action from last weekend's matches. Let's dive straight in!

[Theme music fades out]

Host: First up, we have the iconic striker from Glasgow Rangers, Alan McGregor. Alan, great to have you on the show.

Alan McGregor: Thanks for having me, [Host's Name].

Host: Our pleasure, Alan. So, Rangers faced a tough challenge against Celtic last weekend. How do you think they performed?

Alan McGregor: Well, it was a gritty performance from Rangers, [Host's Name]. They managed to secure a 1-0 victory with a late goal from Morelos. But I have to say, Celtic gave them a real run for their money.

Host: Indeed, it was a closely contested match. Now, moving on, we have the legendary midfielder from Aberdeen, Fiona MacDonald. Fiona, what are your thoughts on Aberdeen's draw against Hearts?

Fiona MacDonald: Hi, [Host's Name]. Aberdeen's performance was solid, but they couldn't quite break down Hearts' defense. Both teams had their chances, but in the end, a draw seemed a fair result.

Host: Thank you, Fiona. Next, we have the former defender from Hibernian, Craig Robertson. Craig, Hibernian suffered a defeat against St. Johnstone. What went wrong for them?

Craig Robertson: Hello, [Host's Name]. It was a disappointing result for Hibernian, no doubt. They struggled to find their rhythm throughout the match, and St. Johnstone capitalized on their defensive lapses to secure a 2-1 victory.

Host: Tough break for Hibernian indeed. And finally, we have the ex-goalkeeper from Motherwell, Jamie MacDonald. Jamie, Motherwell managed to clinch a narrow win against Dundee United. What's your take on their performance?

Jamie MacDonald: Hey, [Host's Name]. It was a hard-fought victory for Motherwell. They showed great determination, especially in defense, to hold off Dundee United's attacks and secure a crucial 1-0 win.

Host: Thank you, Jamie, and to all our guests for sharing your insights. That wraps up our discussion on last weekend's Scottish football action. Join us next time for more analysis and commentary. Until then, keep enjoying the beautiful game!

[101]

7 hours ago, Leith Green said:

Crawford Allan stepping down, but take a gander at some of the utter gaslighting shite in this press release about VAR. In summary, "can someone think of the poor refs and VAR operators"

Scottish referees' chief Allan to step down in summer - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68597180

Until the SFA improve the customer experience of their shit, and unnecessary, intervention then of course all those involved will be criticised.

No wonder people are critical of the decisions made when most weeks the vast majority of people watching the games will be watching live with no replays nor explanation from the math officials.

What kind of idiots run our game when they rolled this out and thought that the people watching the game live don't need to have any idea what is happening nor what is being looked at.

The fact you can't hear the referee discuss what law is being applied nor see the issue so such an easy fix and yet seems beyond the clowns paid significant amounts of cash to run our national game is beyond me.

Until we can get an AI review referee that can make a near instant decision to assist the on field officials then it should be shelved.

[VincentGuerin]

3 hours ago, Leith Green said:

Dont be too surprised if they dont give you what you want and just boot it down the road as per.

The boards (even fan owned) may not have the same views as ordinary punters and will have other priorities.

Example - Hibs complained about sectarian singing and other poor behaviours, and have been asked to chat with the SFA about it, as we all know.

Most fans on here think its a fucking disgrace as well - but not one club (even fan owned ones) have said anything public in support of what Hibs said.

I should say - I didnt actually expect them to (nor would Hibs have said anything had Well come out with a similar statement) - pretty much all the clubs do what is to their benefit and, basically, sod the rest.

There's absolutely no connection between the issue of VAR and Hibernian's statement.

Hibs' statement was their view of what's been happening in their stadium. Other clubs can't possibly be expected to comment on that. Unless your starting point is that the other clubs all support sectarianism and violence, it would have served no purpose and would frankly have been weird. Hibs' major point was their policy on away allocations. That's their business.

VAR is a completely different issue as it affects supporters of all clubs equally. There's no issue of "sod the rest", as nobody is winning or losing here.

If you don't want to contact your club, then don't. But spurious comparisons are not helpful. You could have emailed Hibs in the time it took to write that post.

[Dons_1988]

If you can spare the time, don’t use chat GPT. Write something personal and properly. 

Clubs will know if they’re getting spammed with internet generated letters. It’s fine up to a point but it should be impactful. 

[Scary Bear]

I’m more likely to just give up watching top level football rather than complain to my club or the SPFL or SFA or anyone else.

As long as Raith Rovers stumble about in the lower leagues, I don’t have to suffer VAR, so I only come into contact with it while watching games on TV.

For the avoidance of doubt, I absolutely loathe VAR. It’s easily the worst thing that’s happened to football in the 38 years that I’ve been avidly watching it.

[Leith Green]

2 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

There's absolutely no connection between the issue of VAR and Hibernian's statement.

Hibs' statement was their view of what's been happening in their stadium. Other clubs can't possibly be expected to comment on that. Unless your starting point is that the other clubs all support sectarianism and violence, it would have served no purpose and would frankly have been weird. Hibs' major point was their policy on away allocations. That's their business.

VAR is a completely different issue as it affects supporters of all clubs equally. There's no issue of "sod the rest", as nobody is winning or losing here.

If you don't want to contact your club, then don't. But spurious comparisons are not helpful. You could have emailed Hibs in the time it took to write that post.

Fucking hell

[craigkillie]

2 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

If you can spare the time, don’t use chat GPT. Write something personal and properly. 

Clubs will know if they’re getting spammed with internet generated letters. It’s fine up to a point but it should be impactful. 

And don't bother with 18 pages (front and back) of flowery language either. Just keep it succinct and to the point.

[FK1Bairn]

I have been to every Falkirk home game this season as well as a number of Lowland League and East of Scotland games. Obviously there were the usual stoppages in the games for injuries, goals, substitutions but at no point was there a delay for a reason nobody couldn't see or know why. 

I've seen a few Scottish Premiership and Serie A games on TV this year and I don't think there's been one where there hasn't been a stoppage for a VAR check. At least those watching on TV know why and what is being checked, doesn't seem to be the same consideration given to fans in the stadium who have paid good money. 

Would a one round of top tier fixtures organised boycott of fans get any support? Those fans could head along to lower or non league games that day. You can get entry, a drink and some food for less than the price of entry to a top tier game!

[VincentGuerin]

6 hours ago, craigkillie said:

And don't bother with 18 pages (front and back) of flowery language either. Just keep it succinct and to the point.

This is really important. The person reading your email is at their work. They've got other things to do.

To the point.

[Swello]

I'm going to write to the 'Well Society today on this. They did a half-arsed consultation very late in the day (about 3 days actually) before the vote - but there was never a sense that anything would change based on that. In our "fan owned" setup, we bizarrely have minority voting rights on the club board despite the 71% shareholding so in reality it was already decided, which still fucking annoys me honestly.

For those that want to see the "consultation" text:

Spoiler

Good afternoon,

As you may be aware, on Tuesday 19 April all 42 SPFL member clubs will be asked to vote on the implementation of Video Assistant Referees (VAR) in the Scottish Premiership. If a 75% majority is reached, VAR will subsequently be introduced midway through the 2022/23 season at the earliest. 

The SPFL have issued detailed papers on the introduction of VAR to all SPFL clubs. Using the information available, Motherwell Football Club's Executive Board will reach a position ahead of next week's vote. As a fan-owned club, the Well Society Board will also form its own position which will, in turn, inform the considerations taken by the Executive Board.

The Well Society Board's own position on VAR will be formulated over the coming days, informed by discussions, information provided by the SPFL and input from Well Society members. 

Any Well Society member who wishes to share their views regarding the introduction to VAR, positive or negative, is invited to reply to this e-mail and provide insight into whether they are for or against the implementation of VAR, and their reasons behind this stance. Please do so by 5pm on Thursday 14 April. Thank you.

These responses will not be published but they will feed into the discussions that the Well Society Board undertake over the next few days, allowing us to reach a position that not only takes into account factors such as the information provided by the SPFL and the perceived benefits and drawbacks of VAR, but is also informed by the Well Society members themselves. 

Regards,

The Well Society Board
well.society@motherwellfc.co.uk

And for those that *really* want to see it, my response at the time (it's longer than a normal email as they asked for it )

Spoiler

Hi,

Regarding the email below, I want to respond on two fronts - on the consultation itself and on my position on VAR.

As a Season ticket holder, a Well Society member and a shareholder, I've been genuinely disappointed at the level of engagement from the governing body generally and our club specifically on this topic. While the fine detail of the SPFL proposal may well have been unclear until recently, it has been public knowledge for a long period of time that the introduction of VAR was going to be proposed and in my opinion, it is close to indefensible that no genuine dialogue has been been had with the core audience for Scottish Football. The introduction of VAR is clearly fait accomplis and sadly I need to treat this very late effort with a degree of cynicism as it feels like a box ticking exercise.

VAR is potentially the biggest change to the matchday experience for decades and one that disproportionately affects supporters in grounds relative to those in armchairs or pubs and given our status as a fan owned club, I find it particularly regrettable that we are only being consulted very late in the day and with next to no information as to how VAR will actually be implemented or what it will cost (despite the club now having that detail). I have no idea if Motherwell supporters are for or against VAR in any form but one of the main pillars of fan ownership should be that Well Society members must feel that they have a stake in major decisions and feel that the club is voting with our interests forming part of the decision - I fail to see how that test can be meaningfully met on this occasion given the very short notice with which to get a representative sample of views. To be clear, regardless of my view, I would have been very happy to go with the decision of the majority but as no-one has really asked that will never be possible.

On VAR itself, I am not in favour of its introduction on two main grounds - cost and supporter experience.

On cost, if Motherwell has circa £1m+ to invest over the next decade, I would judge that spending it on VAR is simply not a priority for us. I fail to see what the meaningful return on investment would be for a club where money is scarce and must always be spent carefully. I think it would be unwise to advance any sort of hypothetical argument that VAR could potentially reverse decisions that could cost us league places or cup progression as clearly the reverse could also be the case. If we need to find this money from existing budgets, then I would be concerned about what expense line would be cut to pay for something that is potentially of doubtful value and I would find any suggestion of cuts to playing or non-playing staff budgets to meet the on-going operating costs to be of particular concern.

As someone who attends 30+ games a season I have particular concerns over the impact on matchday experience of VAR. The idea of adding multiple, potentially lengthy stoppages to games may be great for TV viewers who can watch multiple replays or do something else for 6 or 7 minutes but for supporters in grounds with no real idea of what it happening, this will significantly worsen the experience - especially in winter and in bad weather - do supporters want to be in grounds for 10-15 minutes more when they might have a long midweek journey to get home or public transport timetables to stick to? Most grounds don't have suitable video screens that all supporters can see, so I feel that this will sacrifice the experience of the most important supporters - the ones that actually attend games regularly and provide the main income stream for Scottish clubs - for a very limited benefit. I think it is very dangerous to give the impression (correctly in this case) that the best and most comprehensive way to watch a game is on a screen rather than being there.

The spontaneity of football is its biggest selling point - the rarity value of goals and the resultant celebrations make it unique amongst sports and to mess with this most fundamental thing would be a bad mistake - the experience in the English league looks genuinely miserable with goals being chalked off for hairs' breadth offsides, etc- why would we want to copy that? I think that there is a danger of group-think, where it is decided that VAR is desirable simply because other leagues have it with no regard to the specific context of Scottish Football. Our game should not ape other leagues for fear of looking inferior - we should be self confident enough to take our own path where it fits our circumstances better.

Lastly - to make a decision on the adoption of VAR solely on the opinion of the "football department" - whose individual involvement in our club is transitory - to the detriment of our most committed supporters would in my opinion be a serious mistake.

In terms of practical steps - Sponsors aside, the SFA listen to no-one other than themselves and the SPFL only act when practically all the top-flight clubs (and two in particular) are in agreement and tell them to. The only way to get clubs to listen is to threaten season ticket income as other stuff doesn't really affect them and will be brushed off easily (and it gives me no pleasure to say that). I'm not sure the strength of feeling is enough presently that folk will give up season tickets (and hurt their own clubs in doing so) over VAR.

I think the best/most realistic option is to first build consensus for a "Sunset Clause" to be added to VAR. This means that there would be an agreed point where VAR is formally reviewed and clubs vote on whether it continues or not. This is something that is (a) a reasonable request and (b) should have been there in the first place and it would give supporters something to campaign against and give everyone a chance to get out of the current fucking mess without losing too much face. The sunset clause would be timed for the point where the initial investment in the VAR assets is covered/contracts are up for review so that no-one feels like money has been "chucked away".

The only practical shortcut to this is that the league is decided this season on a bad VAR call - it would be dumped by mid-june.

[Sortmeout]

20 hours ago, Charles Stiles said:

Maxwell - 'This includes all key external stakeholders having a better understanding of the laws of the game'

In other words, the fans are thickos that don't know the rules and need educating.

If that is what he believes then they should be made to explain every decision, and the reason for it, publicly after each game.

There should also be explanations of why some decisions are given in one game but not in another (or later that game) for very similar checks.

[VincentGuerin]

I think a sensible first step is to push for a pause to VAR. That's the email I'm sending to my club and the SFA today.

Maxwell has said out loud in his statement that they haven't got the VAR processes right.

VAR has existed since 2016 and has been used in Scotland for a year and a half. If they haven't got it right yet, they shouldn't be asking punters to pay for it.

The lack of engagement is a separate issue, but one I'll keep banging on to my club about.

Edited March 19 by VincentGuerin

[HibsFan]

14 hours ago, Scary Bear said:

I’m more likely to just give up watching top level football rather than complain to my club or the SPFL or SFA or anyone else.

As long as Raith Rovers stumble about in the lower leagues, I don’t have to suffer VAR, so I only come into contact with it while watching games on TV.

For the avoidance of doubt, I absolutely loathe VAR. It’s easily the worst thing that’s happened to football in the 38 years that I’ve been avidly watching it.

I'm not sure if this is a fair description for a team who are currently joint top of the second tier on goal difference. 

However, it does make a good point about the enjoyment of watching games.

I've only watched a handful of 'neutral' games in Scottish football this season, none of the Premiership ones stick out in my mind at all.

The only ones that I can actively remember enjoying watching have been:

Morton 2-1 Motherwell (VARless)

Raith Rovers 4-4 Ayr (VARless)

Raith Rovers 2-1 Dundee United (VARless)

The last five minutes of St Mirren 2-1 Aberdeen were hilarious but even that was kicked off by an energy-sapping VAR check.

[Dons_1988]

30 minutes ago, HibsFan said:

 

The last five minutes of St Mirren 2-1 Aberdeen were hilarious

[Desp]

3 hours ago, Swello said:

 

The only practical shortcut to this is that the league is decided this season on a bad VAR call - it would be dumped by mid-june.

This would be funny.  I'm for this.

[54_and_counting]

4 hours ago, Swello said:

 

The only practical shortcut to this is that the league is decided this season on a bad VAR call - it would be dumped by mid-june.

I dont think it would for this, but if a club were either relegated by a bad call or missed promotion to the top division by a bad call (will VAR be used in playoffs? Canny mind) and said club sues the SFA/SPFL for loss of income, that could be the proverbial straw

[Richey Edwards]

4 hours ago, Sortmeout said:

There should also be explanations of why some decisions are given in one game but not in another (or later that game) for very similar checks.

To "let the match breathe" as if it's a bottle of wine and not a sporting event.

[AJF]

Email sent off to Rangers this afternoon:

Quote

 

Subject: VAR in Scottish Football - ST ref # XXXXXXXXXXX

Good afternoon

 

I am writing to express my concerns and exasperation with VAR in Scottish football and encourage Rangers to take a leading role in challenging its presence in our sport.

 

As a club, Rangers publicly expressed their support for VAR prior to its introduction without any prior consultation of match-going supporters (that I am aware of). I understand the desire for more accurate officiating decisions, but cannot help but feel that had Rangers consulted myself and many others like me, then they’d be left in no doubt that VAR is viewed as an unwelcome intrusion into the game we love.

 

As we have witnessed many times at Ibrox in recent history, VAR is not fit for purpose and is detrimental to the match-going and overall entertainment experience. Fans are now more likely to temper celebrations and long, anxious waits for a decision do the atmosphere no favours whatsoever.

 

I feel the negative impact of VAR drastically outweighs any marginal increase in accuracy of decisions.

 

As such, I would like to put the following questions to the club:

 

1. What is the clubs current views in relation to VAR and its implementation?

2. Does the club have any intention to challenge or question the ongoing use of VAR (if not why not)?

3. Why were supporters not consulted prior to the club publicly supporting the calls for VAR and subsequently voting in favour of adopting it?

4. Are there any plans for supporters to be consulted regarding their opinion of VAR’s impact on the match-going experience?

 

I am unfortunately at the stage where I now feel conflicted about providing my ongoing financial support by way of season ticket renewal if the club feels that there are no issues to address.

 

Kind Regards

 

 

Sent from my iPhone

 

 

[Mr Hahn]

6 hours ago, Swello said:

I'm going to write to the 'Well Society today on this. They did a half-arsed consultation very late in the day (about 3 days actually) before the vote - but there was never a sense that anything would change based on that. In our "fan owned" setup, we bizarrely have minority voting rights on the club board despite the 71% shareholding so in reality it was already decided, which still fucking annoys me honestly.

For those that want to see the "consultation" text:

  Hide contents

Good afternoon,

As you may be aware, on Tuesday 19 April all 42 SPFL member clubs will be asked to vote on the implementation of Video Assistant Referees (VAR) in the Scottish Premiership. If a 75% majority is reached, VAR will subsequently be introduced midway through the 2022/23 season at the earliest. 

The SPFL have issued detailed papers on the introduction of VAR to all SPFL clubs. Using the information available, Motherwell Football Club's Executive Board will reach a position ahead of next week's vote. As a fan-owned club, the Well Society Board will also form its own position which will, in turn, inform the considerations taken by the Executive Board.

The Well Society Board's own position on VAR will be formulated over the coming days, informed by discussions, information provided by the SPFL and input from Well Society members. 

Any Well Society member who wishes to share their views regarding the introduction to VAR, positive or negative, is invited to reply to this e-mail and provide insight into whether they are for or against the implementation of VAR, and their reasons behind this stance. Please do so by 5pm on Thursday 14 April. Thank you.

These responses will not be published but they will feed into the discussions that the Well Society Board undertake over the next few days, allowing us to reach a position that not only takes into account factors such as the information provided by the SPFL and the perceived benefits and drawbacks of VAR, but is also informed by the Well Society members themselves. 

Regards,

The Well Society Board
well.society@motherwellfc.co.uk

And for those that *really* want to see it, my response at the time (it's longer than a normal email as they asked for it )

  Hide contents

Hi,

Regarding the email below, I want to respond on two fronts - on the consultation itself and on my position on VAR.

As a Season ticket holder, a Well Society member and a shareholder, I've been genuinely disappointed at the level of engagement from the governing body generally and our club specifically on this topic. While the fine detail of the SPFL proposal may well have been unclear until recently, it has been public knowledge for a long period of time that the introduction of VAR was going to be proposed and in my opinion, it is close to indefensible that no genuine dialogue has been been had with the core audience for Scottish Football. The introduction of VAR is clearly fait accomplis and sadly I need to treat this very late effort with a degree of cynicism as it feels like a box ticking exercise.

VAR is potentially the biggest change to the matchday experience for decades and one that disproportionately affects supporters in grounds relative to those in armchairs or pubs and given our status as a fan owned club, I find it particularly regrettable that we are only being consulted very late in the day and with next to no information as to how VAR will actually be implemented or what it will cost (despite the club now having that detail). I have no idea if Motherwell supporters are for or against VAR in any form but one of the main pillars of fan ownership should be that Well Society members must feel that they have a stake in major decisions and feel that the club is voting with our interests forming part of the decision - I fail to see how that test can be meaningfully met on this occasion given the very short notice with which to get a representative sample of views. To be clear, regardless of my view, I would have been very happy to go with the decision of the majority but as no-one has really asked that will never be possible.

On VAR itself, I am not in favour of its introduction on two main grounds - cost and supporter experience.

On cost, if Motherwell has circa £1m+ to invest over the next decade, I would judge that spending it on VAR is simply not a priority for us. I fail to see what the meaningful return on investment would be for a club where money is scarce and must always be spent carefully. I think it would be unwise to advance any sort of hypothetical argument that VAR could potentially reverse decisions that could cost us league places or cup progression as clearly the reverse could also be the case. If we need to find this money from existing budgets, then I would be concerned about what expense line would be cut to pay for something that is potentially of doubtful value and I would find any suggestion of cuts to playing or non-playing staff budgets to meet the on-going operating costs to be of particular concern.

As someone who attends 30+ games a season I have particular concerns over the impact on matchday experience of VAR. The idea of adding multiple, potentially lengthy stoppages to games may be great for TV viewers who can watch multiple replays or do something else for 6 or 7 minutes but for supporters in grounds with no real idea of what it happening, this will significantly worsen the experience - especially in winter and in bad weather - do supporters want to be in grounds for 10-15 minutes more when they might have a long midweek journey to get home or public transport timetables to stick to? Most grounds don't have suitable video screens that all supporters can see, so I feel that this will sacrifice the experience of the most important supporters - the ones that actually attend games regularly and provide the main income stream for Scottish clubs - for a very limited benefit. I think it is very dangerous to give the impression (correctly in this case) that the best and most comprehensive way to watch a game is on a screen rather than being there.

The spontaneity of football is its biggest selling point - the rarity value of goals and the resultant celebrations make it unique amongst sports and to mess with this most fundamental thing would be a bad mistake - the experience in the English league looks genuinely miserable with goals being chalked off for hairs' breadth offsides, etc- why would we want to copy that? I think that there is a danger of group-think, where it is decided that VAR is desirable simply because other leagues have it with no regard to the specific context of Scottish Football. Our game should not ape other leagues for fear of looking inferior - we should be self confident enough to take our own path where it fits our circumstances better.

Lastly - to make a decision on the adoption of VAR solely on the opinion of the "football department" - whose individual involvement in our club is transitory - to the detriment of our most committed supporters would in my opinion be a serious mistake.

In terms of practical steps - Sponsors aside, the SFA listen to no-one other than themselves and the SPFL only act when practically all the top-flight clubs (and two in particular) are in agreement and tell them to. The only way to get clubs to listen is to threaten season ticket income as other stuff doesn't really affect them and will be brushed off easily (and it gives me no pleasure to say that). I'm not sure the strength of feeling is enough presently that folk will give up season tickets (and hurt their own clubs in doing so) over VAR.

I think the best/most realistic option is to first build consensus for a "Sunset Clause" to be added to VAR. This means that there would be an agreed point where VAR is formally reviewed and clubs vote on whether it continues or not. This is something that is (a) a reasonable request and (b) should have been there in the first place and it would give supporters something to campaign against and give everyone a chance to get out of the current fucking mess without losing too much face. The sunset clause would be timed for the point where the initial investment in the VAR assets is covered/contracts are up for review so that no-one feels like money has been "chucked away".

The only practical shortcut to this is that the league is decided this season on a bad VAR call - it would be dumped by mid-june.

FWIW, that's an excellent letter. Like you say, shame the fans were consulted so late in the day and essentially in a box ticking exercise.

[pandatree]

22 hours ago, Desp said:

Agree.  I'd like to see Hearts, Motherwell & St. Mirren take the lead on this.  Providing the relevant Boards of the FOH, Well Society & whatever St. Mirren have are actually in favour of VAR or not.

It's one of the points I asked in my email to the WS.  I think there's 7 or 8 on the Board of the WS, so I'm keen to see if a majority of the Board are in favour of it or not.  If the majority of the Board aren't in favour, what's their plan? 

I emailed SMISA after the announcement that St Mirren would vote for VAR as they had ran a poll and not announced the results, which seemed pretty shady.

I assumed some nefarious dealings were afoot, but I got an email back that showed that I was in the clear minority of those that had bothered to vote.

"The result of the VAR poll, from 211 votes, was as follows :
FOR: 143
AGAINST: 68
These figures were passed to SMiSA's club directors ahead of the SPFL vote on Tuesday."

Hopefully opinions have changed now. I'm no longer a member of SMISA but I'll send an email to the club.

I highly doubt the  put ourselves out there to be the first league to bin VAR but it's worth a shot.