The New Raith Rovers Thread

[Big Berk]

They run a business whose sole purpose is entertainment there business represents poor value for money in a tough economic climate stop whingeing about customers because you will only piss off even more people who could be paying to get in on a Saturday. The club has been poorly run for years by various people

I agree 100%

Really? If we were losing 4-3 every week at home and rooted to the bottom of the league, would there be more fans than if we were playing one up front, lumping long balls into the box, scraping 1-0 wins and sitting top?

Fans of entertaining sides which score goals know their team has potential and are therefore enthusiastic and optimistic. Teams like that vewry rarely have home records like ours. How often do we score 3 goals at home? Saturdays at Starks are usually painfully frustrating.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Big Berk

[pantene proV]

Choosing to go wholly full-time the very season Dunfermline left for the league above was dumb as f**k as far as I'm concerned. They surely must have realised that the players overachieved in matching the Pars for most of last year.

I'm staggered sometimes by the sheer stupidity of folks at the helm of football clubs. Yes, they are fans but they're fairly successful in business matters so what precludes that savvy from entering the front door at San Starko?

[honeyboy edwards]

I'll support the Rovers vocally, financially and fundraising wise for as long as I, or they, are alive but I have to say that it's fucking soul destroying reading about this constant struggle to stay afloat.

If my family was struggling as bad as this financially and we were on the verge of bankruptcy I'd cut everything down to the bare bones. Aye, fair enough, we'd get sick of playing Monopoly every night due to getting rid of the tv and I'd miss getting humped by super-fast fingered Chinese geniuses at Pro Evo online on the PS3 but at least we'd have a bit of money about us to provide an even footing for replenishing our luxuries through time.

Raith Rovers need to go to the bare bones, part time throughout until we have a wee bit of money to be adventurous enough to push on a wee bit and bring in a few luxuries. If that means dropping down to the 3rd division and getting pumped off Montrose 4 times a season then so be it. At least we would still have the foundations in place to build on again. The way the club's finances are going at the moment, these foundations are in grave danger of crumbling beneath our feet and some serious action needs taken one way or the other before we find ourselves with nothing left to work with.

Well said Andy.

Its not just the Rovers in this situation, but most of the 1st Division are in the same boat. The SPL has killed the 1st Division and its about time that all the Chairmen wake up and smell the coffee that you cannot sustain full time football on crowds of 1,500 to 2,000.

Even getting the golden tiocket to the promised land isnt any good any more, just ask the Pars how their finances are tyhis season.

[Michael W]

Its not just the Rovers in this situation, but most of the 1st Division are in the same boat. The SPL has killed the 1st Division and its about time that all the Chairmen wake up and smell the coffee that you cannot sustain full time football on crowds of 1,500 to 2,000.

Completely agree.

The board can moan all they want, but why aren't they waking up to the harsh realities? They really need to stop basing our budget on mere wishes and hope, and instead base it on an acceptance that we have what we have and no more. Only then can we put ourselves on a sound financial footing.

For those making the decisions - i.e. the board - to then come out and blame people for not turning up makes me sick, frankly. I didn't set poorly-thought budgets, so why am I and the rest of the fans being blamed for them? The fans aren't responsible for running the club, but there are several of them out there that raise thousands year-on-year to help the club keep going. It must be a right slap in the face for these guys - their efforts are more or less brushed aside whilst the support in general gets the blame for our predicament.

The facts are there for all to see; it's just a shame that our board continually choose to ignore them.

[Broken Algorithms]

Never mind lads, Scott McBride is almost back from injury...he'll save us in our relegation battle.

[cowdenbeath]

Looking at the Rovers situation as an outsider but Andy C makes a lot of good points. Isn't it time that the Rovers and a few other sides in the 1st division bit the bullet and go part time.

Given that your are getting 12-1500 on average you would still have the funds to get a decent squad of part timers. I was speaking to someone who was involved with a few clubs 20 years ago or so recently and he told me that back then you needed an average gate of around 5000 to be able to sustain full time football. I wouldn't think things have changed that much so there must be a few clubs really struggling to hold on to their full time status.

[Paco]

Looking at the Rovers situation as an outsider but Andy C makes a lot of good points. Isn't it time that the Rovers and a few other sides in the 1st division bit the bullet and go part time.

Absolutely, 100%. Something our own board and manager have stated on a few occasions over the last few years.... yet we still went full-time aside from McGurn/coaches in the summer. Completely puzzling.

Spending what little money we have on a few duds of course hasn't helped the on field situation. I totally disagree with restricting ourselves to full-time players, even away from the financial side. I understand John McGlynn is ambitious and wants more time to work with younger players, but McGurn and Campbell essentially kept us up in our first year. They were probably the best in their respective positions in the league. Ferry made a valuable contribution in the First Division, wee Darren Smith had a solid year here. But now we're turning our back on that route for reasons that, while well intended, make zero sense. The best of the part-time players are better than the worst of the full-timers.

It's utterly galling watch us struggle year to year while Dundee cheated for a few years, paid 6p in the pound and now things are rosy again. There's little incentive in football to spend wisely and unfortunately it's going to blow up in someone's face eventually. I can only hope t won't be us.

[HoBNob]

Does any other team except for Dundee rent their stadium from elsewhere. I think that is undoubtedly one of our most significant problems. We can bring in too much revenue on top of the mortgage, we can't upgrade the stadium as it isn't ours, but we can't move elsewhere with no alternative.

Technically Dunfermline don't own our stadium, Gavin Masterton and John Yorkston do under a seperate company.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Grant228

[vikingTON]

There are obviously other retorts too - if our finances really are as bad as you say, why did we bring in Clarke on loan and Casalinouvo until the end of the season? That's a pretty clear gamble, and it angers me that our finances have suddenly become the fans' fault when the board are moaning about losing money, then going out and spending more. Yes, it's trying to solve the part of our problem that results in fans staying away (us being pish), but it's irresponsible when we're already on track to posting a big loss.

Fans just don't return, halfway through a season, even if the standard of the team is improving.

I think they've made the right choice in giving John McGlynn the lowest "competitive" budget they could, and hoping the team overachieves under a talented manager. I still believe that will happen, and the team will stay up.

Finishing 8th is not an overachievement though. Ayr and Queens should be cannon-fodder due to their lack of funds.

[vikingTON]

its about time that all the Chairmen wake up and smell the coffee that you cannot sustain full time football on crowds of 1,500 to 2,000.

Of course you can. The main cost is wages, not maintenance of facilities, and clubs could quite easily operate with a team of kids, not really earning much more than good part-time wages, as they don't have family and other commitments that your 30-year old journeyman has to consider.

Morton won the Third Division with a team of kids, full-time, but not earning much. Full-time clubs want to have their cake and eat it though, which is why budgets are unsustainable. When one club chucks it, the rest will have the room to follow suit without being relegated.

[donny86]

The whole full / part time issue this season is a non starter. The board gave mcglynn the budget to spend how he wanted whether that be part or full time so it's completely down to him that we have a poor squad and the board have over budgeted the wage bill too

I am seriously doubting the calibre of Mcglynn now, with the exception of Wales I can't think of a player he has brought in that was any good (excluding loan players)

[grumswall]

The whole full / part time issue this season is a non starter. The board gave mcglynn the budget to spend how he wanted whether that be part or full time so it's completely down to him that we have a poor squad and the board have over budgeted the wage bill too

I am seriously doubting the calibre of Mcglynn now, with the exception of Wales I can't think of a player he has brought in that was any good (excluding loan players)

John Baird

[R.R.FC]

Dave McGurn, Laurie Ellis, Grant Murray, Allan Walker and Gregory Tade to name a few

[CALDERON]

Exactly. What a fucking ludicrous thing to say.

[donny86]

Not having Ellis due to his previous stints at the club, Murray is passed his best, I'll give you Mcgurn and tade though

[p&b is a disgrace]

1. We're full time because thats what McGlynn wanted.

2. We're a poor team which, with the exception of Davison, are all McGlynns picks, and

3. Crowds are down due to McGlynns brutal tactics and lack of any tactical awareness

The board have continually pumped their own cash into the club to keep us afloat and they should be applauded for that. For example, the main stand is only open because TH personally paid for repars to the roof.

I know where I think the blame lies for our increased costs and our decreased income. The boards contribution to our current situation is in investing too much faith in a guy who is currently failing on almost every level.

[Mij]

I think it's difficult to argue with the majority of the article, and I'd like to back Turnbull Hutton in this instance. The directors stepping in and paying wages is admirable, and turning that money into shares instead of "soft loans" even more so. Christ knows how much money is being pished away there.

directly or indirectly Hutton and Caira are part responsible for the state the club are in.they were board members when smith and mcgowan took over and the Anelka fiasco.as far as it being admirable that they have stepped in and paid wages and turned that money into shares instead of soft loans.you make it sound that they are doing someting wonderful. turning the soft loans into shares is more for their benefit.

Does any other team except for Dundee rent their stadium from elsewhere. I think that is undoubtedly one of our most significant problems. We can bring in too much revenue on top of the mortgage, we can't upgrade the stadium as it isn't ours, but we can't move elsewhere with no alternative.

outwith money there is nothing to stop us upgrading the stadium.

as far as rental goes,were paying roughly a third of the original rental fee

Edited February 10, 2012 by Mij

[p&b is a disgrace]

directly or indirectly Hutton and Caira are part responsible for the state the club are in.they were board members when smith and mcgowan took over and the Anelka fiasco.

Which Hutton voted against.

turning the soft loans into shares is more for their benefit.

Are they really?A bundle of shares that are worth f**k all will return, at best, f**k all.

Unless you think that we're likely to bounce back, become European champs and be a club that everyone's desperate to invest in - within Turnbull & Marios lifetime?

Edited February 10, 2012 by p&b is a disgrace

[Ro Sham Bo]

I notice Eric Drysdale has posted a lengthy reply on fantalk.

http://www.raithfantalk.co.uk/

Edited February 10, 2012 by Martin Nelson

[Raith Against The Machine]

I notice Eric Drysdale has posted a lengthy reply on fantalk.

http://www.raithfantalk.co.uk/

Indeed.

The words of Eric Drysdale:

Right then.

Turnbull's interview with the FFP has certainly got a reaction, some of it even before it was published!

The board does listen to fans views, particularly via the Raith Forum but also through Fantalk. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on why we are in this position, but I did want to make a few things clear.

First and foremost, this financial position is very serious indeed. You may feel the board is to blame, or you may feel it is down to other factors, but one thing I can assure you is that every single person at the club is pulling in the same direction, doing their level best to ensure the club's survival. We are blessed with a committed board, an extremely hard working manager, a strong backroom team, talented players, and very hard working staff in the commercial, groundstaff and admin departments. We also benefit hugely from the services of a number of volunteers. Most importantly of all, we have a wonderful hard core of supporters locally and around the world.

I wanted to say a bit more about the board. There are no splits. We are united in our efforts. In aggregate I think we have something like 200 - 250 years experience in business. A retired industry leader hugely respected in business and football circles, a highly successful local businessman with a wealth of contacts, a Financial Director who is a chartered accountant of 33 years experience and is a recently retired partner of a large Edinburgh firm, a former Deputy Chief Executive of the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council, a team leader in Fife Council Community Education, a retired senior manager of Bank of Scotland and myself, a current lending policy manager for RBS with responsibility for a number of industry sectors including football. Some are (or were) wealthier than others. I say 'were' because they have committed huge sums to the club over a number of years to keep it afloat. All members commit a huge amount of their time, for no reward at all.

Has this highly experienced board made mistakes? Yes it has. Does it have the answers? No it doesn't. But until someone else comes up with a solution, and has the resources to implement it, this board will continue to do its level best. The board will welcome offers of constructive support and assistance from any quarter. It is not a closed shop.

So why are we in this position? Well, first and foremost, like so many businesses, we are suffering in a prolonged recession. All areas of income are down and falling, and most costs are up and rising. The length of the recession has exceeded most observers' predicitions but is showing no sign of ending any time soon. But there is more to it than that.

The current football model simply doesn't work. Not even in the SPL. Even down south, only 4 Premiership clubs and 3 Championship clubs made operating profits last year. The rest are either funded by multi millionaires and billionaires or are making huge losses still being funded by banks and creditors such as HMRC. It is always possible to drastically cut costs at the end of a season, but of course the lower the wage bill the greater the likelihood of relegation or lowly league position. That brings lower gate receipts and lower commercial revenue, and with that comes potentially greater losses. In other words, a downward spiral. The alternative is to 'speculate to accumulate' - a phrase often used on these boards and elsewhere. In other words, pay a bit more and hope for success. And if success doesn't come, again the income does not match the committed expenditure. Neither alternative works, and there are risks attaching to all possible strategies. Professional sport is unique in the business world in that success or failure can be, and often is, determined by luck or by a refereeing decision, or by something over which none of us has control. And with that unpredictability comes a high degree of business risk.

That's where the Huttons and Cairas (and in our case other benefactors too) of this world come in. Without them and their like there would be few if any Scottish provincial clubs still in existence. We owe them a huge debt of gratitude, and they do not deserve the pelters they are getting from some quarters.

But there's still more that lies behind our predicament. Our 2011/12 budget was agreed last spring, prior to the HMRC crisis and the other unexpected events of the summer. It was agreed at a time when we were a whisker away from the SPL. We knew that if we did not go up, Dunfermline would and we factored that in. We also factored in a flat-ish trading performance in 2011/12, as the politicians and economists were predicting. What we have got is increased cost inflation and a prolonged recession. And a team that has still to achieve the consistency of last season. Furthermore, as Turnbull alluded to at the open meeting, there were certain issues that emerged over the summer that set us back. These turned out to be still worse than we expected back then. In accounting terms these are being dealt with in the 2010/11 accounting period but, much more importantly, we have had to deal with the cash flow consequences this season, against the backcloth of much worse economic conditions than had been forecast. In other words, our too ambitious commitment of expenditure to build a robust infrastructure for the club's future and fund an ultimately unsuccessful promotion push are also partly what's behind this season's problems.

What is certain, however, is that the current board is fully hands on in terms of financial management, far more so than in the recent past, and there has never been better financial stewardship of the club in my 13 years than there is right now, I'm glad to say.

Meanwhile, while the board plus famous and not so famous benefactors have collectively contributed a substantial 6 figure sum this season alone, supporters have also been great. The Members Club has brought in £30k+ and all the Rally Round the Rovers initiatives continue to bring in vital donations. Sadly, it's still not enough. I was particularly delighted to notice on this thread (or was it on P&B?) that one individual is bringing three pals tomorrow. Thank you sir. That is exactly what we need. Other posters have posted very sensible thoughts and I know that, ultimately, we are all on the same side so I know you will all do all you can to attend yourself and bring along family & friends if at all possible. And I'm sure John and the team will do their very best to deliver a performance and a result.

I hope this is helpful in setting out why we NEED your help for the club to survive, RIGHT NOW. It is, of course, your right to stay away if you so choose. But if you possibly can, please stick with it, in order to help ensure there is still a club to support next season, and for the next generation.

Thanks

Eric

Edited February 10, 2012 by Raith Against The Machine