The New Raith Rovers Thread

[grumswall]

26 minutes ago, Zen Archer (Raconteur) said:

Despite the campaign to save the Rovers after Anelka and the West Coast mob, Mr Sim came in and saved the day as it were, there was always a debt.

John Sim only came to influence the club after Mario sold his shares, if the quote that the debt has been reduced by £500K is surely down to him.

If the previous is true, surely in recent history, finances are being managed.

Is the 500k not essentially the loan from the Irish bank that had to be paid off? So essentially the debt went from there and in to "soft" loans etc elsewhere? So yes that was paid off, but the club still racked up debt elsewhere to compensate. 

I don't begin to think I know the full ins and outs of it but it seems on the face of it, that the club has never really recovered from the "historical" debt we've had. It seems like its always been a case of move this bit here to pay that and move that bit there to cover it, without ever truly addressing the debt. 

The pitch, community hub etc are things that could in theory make the club money, but does the pitch make money? Does anything at the club run at a profit? 

Covid hasn't helped, selling players for far less than their worth (or for a bag if bibs ala bates) sure as hell hasn't. 

Essentially, you can do anything with financies and still claim they are being "managed" it's all about wether they are being managed correctly or not. That seems up for debate in the majority of the years iv supported the club. 

[TxRover]

2 hours ago, Broken Algorithms said:

Her twitter has been full of folk claiming that she used the Goodwillie situation for her own gain with (and I'm not suggesting it's everyone pinging her an @) some horrendous abuse. There's absolutely no chance that she'll be investing. I'd be quite surprised that even when Sims gone if she'll come back to games. 

The upside is that we at least know where we stand. For years we've been in a situation where we've had a hugely convoluted business model and an owner who refused to explain what would happen if he passed away. There hasn't been any visible continuity plan for years and it's something which has been spoken about quite widely. As an owner, Sim had it relatively easy from our fans prior to January 31st last year. Most fans will still acknowledge for all that went wrong in that one decision, overall he's kept us floating as a club and for that 

We're not alone in the position that we're in. We're tied in with a stadium which has a great history, but practically speaking it's a bit of an elephant. There's been some investment in recent years but there's an absolute dearth of any atmosphere unless it's a derby. 

I'd be delighted if we got a new investor who wanted to take us away from Stark's and build a smaller capacity stadium, but frankly there's f**k all chance of that happening. For all the positives and negatives Sim has done with the club, the most important bit is that it's passed on to someone who won't bullshit the fans or have more interest in levelling our ground for property with no alternative. 

But, and it’s a big but, she was a true fan for years. There is a certain streak of masochism in being a fan of a fitba team, so you can never say never, especially if she could scoop if from Sim for a song…just saying. There are several reasonably well off fans of the team that could put together a decent ownership group, but the fans here have bad things to say about most of them, so who knows, eh?

[TxRover]

1) If SP is Sim’s pension, he needs someone to buy him out of the team AND ensure the team remains at SP.

I highly doubt Sim can successfully sell only the team since he would try to ensure they remained tied to SP, if this is true.

2) If someone was willing to but the team and move them, what would Sim do, would he still sell?

This is the million pound question.

3) Is SP a viable venue for a football team going forward another 25-50 years?

I’m afraid it isn’t without significant investment, investment that is not financially prudent…i.e. needs a fan to buy in.

4) Assuming SP isn’t viable as is, what are the options at that location?

A rebuild seems unlikely to be finically worthwhile, while selling the property isn’t exactly a massive money spinner either.

5) Are there any current, viable, options for housing Raith Rovers within the immediate Kirkcaldy area?

???

6) Is anyone stupid enough to build a new, purpose built facilty?

???

7) Would anyone even support moving to a sterile new facility, and how large would it be?

Some would, but many wouldn’t…and the size would have to be appropriate to support, so perhaps about 2,500-3,000 with a way to allow perhaps as much as 5,000 at a stretch?

[grumswall]

8 minutes ago, TxRover said:

But, and it’s a big but, she was a true fan for years. There is a certain streak of masochism in being a fan of a fitba team, so you can never say never, especially if she could scoop if from Sim for a song…just saying. There are several reasonably well off fans of the team that could put together a decent ownership group, but the fans here have bad things to say about most of them, so who knows, eh?

That's the same for any fan group in fairness. You can't please everyone all the time n all that. I think as long as we have a club to support then most people will get on board with whatever direction it takes in the long term. Let's be honest, the majority that support the club now have lived through the begging bowls days so do appreciate that we've still got a club in the first place. Munich is definitely a distant memory when you travel to Peterhead or Stranraer to support your team. 

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

4 minutes ago, grumswall said:

Essentially, you can do anything with financies and still claim they are being "managed" it's all about wether they are being managed correctly or not. That seems up for debate in the majority of the years iv supported the club. 

My point regarding Mr Sim and his management is relative to when he could influence total control.

It is known that prior to this, the Football Club were not paying 'rent' and were not keeping up with repairs, this has been mostly resolved since he came to control both sides of the business.

The stadium improvements since his control have been welcome and long overdue, the only blip I can see is the Titan issue, I am still unclear as to what went wrong as to what was promised, alas, it appears to be being utilised.

The development to the rear of the North Stand is interesting, despite the desire for it to be doubled in height since planning was approved for the original project, I would personally like to hear why, and how it it will be utilised and bring benefit to the club.

[grumswall]

3 minutes ago, Zen Archer (Raconteur) said:

My point regarding Mr Sim and his management is relative to when he could influence total control.

It is known that prior to this, the Football Club were not paying 'rent' and were not keeping up with repairs, this has been mostly resolved since he came to control both sides of the business.

The stadium improvements since his control have been welcome and long overdue, the only blip I can see is the Titan issue, I am still unclear as to what went wrong as to what was promised, alas, it appears to be being utilised.

The development to the rear of the North Stand is interesting, despite the desire for it to be doubled in height since planning was approved for the original project, I would personally like to hear why, and how it it will be utilised and bring benefit to the club.

What confuses me with the "rent" aspect is, was sim not a part of the club side of things that wasn't paying rent? I can't remember that answer off the top of my admittedly Ill and sleep deprived head. If that was the case it seems strange that there was such a disconnect between the two entities. 

I agree the improvements that have been happening have been welcome and overdue. The titan seems like a waste of money from a footballing aspect but for community use, it might well be good? I havent been in it so can't really comment beyond that. It does seem like we were sold something and didn't get what we expected though. 

On the North stand development, it's a fantastic idea on paper and in theory. Iv always assumed there would be greater corporate facilities, the club (or ssp) could hire out to bring in revenue. We've never been told how it was to be funded though, which was always my biggest issue with it. I can't see it happening now regardless although it could be an attractive proposition to interested parties, with there already being planning permission in place. 

The lack of transparency at the club over matters like that has been very poor. 

[TxRover]

So, looking around, I assume a fresh stadium would almost inevitably have to be located off the A92. Since that would ruin access to the park from rail and leave very little within walking distance, it seems a poor second choice to making SP work. Unfortunately it isn’t easy or cheap to do something like that, and with the rail and road constraints, may not even be viable with current planning requirements.

I would assume the most viable redevelopment plan would involve demolition of virtually everything and then:

-Realign the pitch to the railway, leaving a narrow access track between the fence and the rail right of way.

-Construction of a narrower visitors stand at the north end.

-Construction of a larger south stand, possibly with integrated hospitality at the rail end, allowed by an L shaped end that would be possible with the realignment.

-Construction of offices and facilities along the Pratt Street side from the southeast corner to a little beyond the halfway line, perhaps including several rows of standing area along nearly the whole length of the Pratt Street side, divided by pitch access from the facilities building

 

It gives you a three sided stadium with the standing access many fans desire, new seating areas and offices/facilities. The catch would be capacity, as I would expect to lose capacity at both ends (north especially) and from the removal of the Main Stand seats…although some could be placed there again depending on how the facilities were designed.

 

But, let’s face reality, it’s all a pipe dream until and unless Sim finds an investor who is willing to truly fund the team without reservation…and where would Raith play for the couple of years it would take?

[Ro Sham Bo]

12 hours ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

Fan ownership and put @Ro Sham Bo in charge. It’ll be sensational, you’ll have a new manager every fucking week. 

I might enter the lotto super draws over the Christmas period in the hope of being able to put my own bid in. Might even take charge of the team myself. 

Lowland league here we come. 

[Scary Bear]

14 hours ago, renton said:

What are our options here?

Dodgy foreign investors: spend big have a temporary euphoric wave of success, go bust and end up in the EoSL

Fan ownership: Starts with pious ambition, ends with ever reducing budgets, venomous factional infighting and go to the EoSL the long way round.

Some local group of investors take leave of their senses, plug some gaps for a few years while we grind away in the Championship/League 1 - come back to this same conversation 5 years down the line.

Yes, that about covers it.

The chopping and changing of ownership and existential fear of ceasing to be gets tiring after a while. Let’s give the fan ownership EoSL thing a whirl. Hire in a Croatian coach and see what he can do with a youth set up, until the weather scunners him?

[Scary Bear]

2 hours ago, Ro Sham Bo said:

I might enter the lotto super draws over the Christmas period in the hope of being able to put my own bid in. Might even take charge of the team myself. 

Lowland league here we come. 

It’s good to have ambition. Promise me you’ll take us to the EoSFL in timE for Fife derbies with Kirkcaldy YM, Glenrothes and Burntisland.

[Raithie]

6 hours ago, TxRover said:

So, looking around, I assume a fresh stadium would almost inevitably have to be located off the A92. 

I believe that was the original plan prior to Starks Park being redeveloped. Ground was to be up by Sainsburys and architect drawings had it looking similar to Livi's ground. 

[RavyDavy]

Up by the A92 would be an ideal location for a stadium.... How many modern stadia are in town centres these days? There are always exceptions but Starks Park is in a terrible location for modern demands. 

Starks Park is crumbling and all that is happening is that good money is being thrown after bad. Some of the "development" choices have been questionable - the portakabin for example? What on earth is it? As much as I like the idea of the building behind the north stand, I'm not convinced that there's a commercial return on that which would justify the cost.

Any serious investors looking at the medium to long term future of the club will have consider the option of moving away from Starks Park. 

[RavyDavy]

7 hours ago, TxRover said:

So, looking around, I assume a fresh stadium would almost inevitably have to be located off the A92. Since that would ruin access to the park from rail and leave very little within walking distance, it seems a poor second choice to making SP work. Unfortunately it isn’t easy or cheap to do something like that, and with the rail and road constraints, may not even be viable with current planning requirements.

I would assume the most viable redevelopment plan would involve demolition of virtually everything and then:

-Realign the pitch to the railway, leaving a narrow access track between the fence and the rail right of way.

-Construction of a narrower visitors stand at the north end.

-Construction of a larger south stand, possibly with integrated hospitality at the rail end, allowed by an L shaped end that would be possible with the realignment.

-Construction of offices and facilities along the Pratt Street side from the southeast corner to a little beyond the halfway line, perhaps including several rows of standing area along nearly the whole length of the Pratt Street side, divided by pitch access from the facilities building

 

It gives you a three sided stadium with the standing access many fans desire, new seating areas and offices/facilities. The catch would be capacity, as I would expect to lose capacity at both ends (north especially) and from the removal of the Main Stand seats…although some could be placed there again depending on how the facilities were designed.

 

But, let’s face reality, it’s all a pipe dream until and unless Sim finds an investor who is willing to truly fund the team without reservation…and where would Raith play for the couple of years it would take?

What you're proposing here is a significant civil engineering works with huge cost and timescales. Not to mention we'd need to ground share somewhere for that time.

And at the end, we'd be left with a ground with the same accessibility issues and restrictions as the previous. 

Redeveloping SP was, in hindsight, a mistake. 

[Michael W]

I don't really how a new stadium helps, tbh. In essence a prospective purchaser will pay a price for Stark's, needs to sell it and then build a new one from scratch. So land purchase, material and construction costs. Can that realistically be done for the same money we could sell Stark's for? I don't know how much Sim will want for the ground, but the total value of assets in the accounts is just shy of £2m. Worryingly there is over £1.7m in long term liabilities (presumably this is money due to Sim). I hadn't seen the most recent accounts for the stadium until now but they are not encouraging - and this is the 'healthy' part of the business. 

Of course, Stark's needs - apparently significant- maintenance and you need to consider the costs of that as well. 

On a slightly different note, I can't muster any enthusiasm for a new stadium. It'll be yet another utilitarian, soulless, out-of-town misery bowl. St Mirren Park, but with 3 stands and blue seats. 

[Dunning1874]

12 hours ago, Michael W said:

Reading that statement again and it brings home what a mess the whole situation is.

Average loss of £150k a season. Board mismanagement, nothing we don't know. 

'Deferred maintenance that must be dealt with' = Sim at fault for this one. Thought he would maybe want to ensure his asset was in top condition whilst a whole load of shite was dumped in the football club's accounts. Seemingly that's not great either. 

"seek further ways to change the economic business model by bringing in outside investors with funds and expertise." Do you mean like putting in a synthetic surface so it can be rented out and generate income? Or how about ever-more-ambitious clubhouse building plans? What about someone that actually bothers their arse to sell matchday hospitality and try and actually get some income for the stadium advertising? Has Sim finally admitted defeated on his grand plans? 

It is exactly what happens when control rests with one person, and a distant person at that. Benign neglect. 

Perhaps laying all the doom for all to see was not the most sensible way to try and sell the club. Essentially what is being sold is a stadium (in need of work) with an insolvent football club attached to it. Not exactly a promising start.

 

 

12 hours ago, pub car king said:

We are one club who should run as far as far away as we can from fan ownership. Our fans can't agree on the colour of shite never mind how to take forward a massive financial liability. 

It's quite apparent we are living outwith our means and need cash.

The sticking point will be the stadium and all the leveraged debt as well as the poor state it is in. The main stand is old as f**k and not really fit for the modern day but it soldiers on. Both stands behind the goals are 35 years old and had bare minimal maintenance. We don't even need to talk about the railway stand that's been out of commission for what 15 years? 

 

 

Change the £150K to £250K and these posts could have been made by Morton fans in 2019. An owner who had turned their disinterested neglect into an argument for their own benevolence and a fanbase too fractured about either the reality of that situation or how to respond to it to be able to sit in away ends together without stewards wading in to break up the fights.

Yet here we are with fan ownership, and after the owner had the brass neck to try to keep hold of the stadium in the initial negotiations the resistance of the fanbase meant we own it. The previous neglect of basic maintenance of that stadium has been actively addressed within a break even budget for the club.

Attempts to seek outside investment have succeeded in ways that simply would not have happened under previous owners. Like John Sim with Raith the only way the stadium name was ever going to change at Morton was the Rae family benevolently deciding to attach their own name to something as a reward for everything they perceived themselves as having done. The new board have raked a six figure sum in for it still being called Cappielow, which transformed the playing budget from being the smallest in the division to being able to attract some quality players while still operating within a break even model.

Unless you get a ridiculous level of sugar daddy backing in the manner of Queen's Park, the break even model is going to have to happen anyway. You may as well get some security along with it.

 

[CountryBumpkin]

13 minutes ago, Michael W said:

I don't really how a new stadium helps, tbh. In essence a prospective purchaser will pay a price for Stark's, needs to sell it and then build a new one from scratch. So land purchase, material and construction costs. Can that realistically be done for the same money we could sell Stark's for? I don't know how much Sim will want for the ground, but the total value of assets in the accounts is just shy of £2m. Worryingly there is over £1.7m in long term liabilities (presumably this is money due to Sim). I hadn't seen the most recent accounts for the stadium until now but they are not encouraging - and this is the 'healthy' part of the business. 

Of course, Stark's needs - apparently significant- maintenance and you need to consider the costs of that as well. 

On a slightly different note, I can't muster any enthusiasm for a new stadium. It'll be yet another utilitarian, soulless, out-of-town misery bowl. St Mirren Park, but with 3 stands and blue seats. 

I agree. I think the option of a new stadium is something that is long gone. We should have done that before we remodelled Stark's to be fair. 

Right now we have to do a better job of encouraging what is a massively lapsed fanbase back to the games week in, week out. We have to do that in this economic climate too. More money in means more things can be done. In terms of new ownership, I don't know what the options realistically are, fan ownership? Domestic custodian? Foreign money? 

[JaketheSnake]

Does anyone know what's actually wrong with the stands? Almost every away ground I've been to is in worse condition than Starks Park. 

[philpy]

I think it might be steel related.

[Specky Ginger]

1 hour ago, Michael W said:

 

I can't muster any enthusiasm for a new stadium. It'll be yet another utilitarian, soulless, out-of-town misery bowl. St Mirren Park, but with 3 stands and blue seats. 

Me neither.

The original proposed site for a new ground was up at Randolph, but there were issues immediately with planning permission and because of the ludicrous 10,000 seater rule and the deadline for meeting that requirement, we were forced into the quick redevelopment of Stark's Park.

[Been going too long]

1 hour ago, Specky Ginger said:

Me neither.

The original proposed site for a new ground was up at Randolph, but there were issues immediately with planning permission and because of the ludicrous 10,000 seater rule and the deadline for meeting that requirement, we were forced into the quick redevelopment of Stark's Park.

I’m different wish we had moved in the 90’s, stands at starks are too big for our needs and don’t help with the atmosphere at all.  This is all pie in the sky of course, chatting to folk at the club over the years they all moan about lack of decent hospitality space etc, starks has character especially the main stand but not much else imo