Things you want to share with P&B

[Hedgecutter]

3 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

Nothing more than a profit making organisation? Literally nothing more? Try telling a minister counseling a grieving widow that he's just doing it for the cash (which in Scotland is less than median wage).

The CoS is hardly flush with money. Their legacy of crumbling listed buildings is a financial millstone. Nobody in the kirk treats it like a money making organisation, they're putting fingers in dykes.

Outwith Scotland there are plenty of places where churches operate under threat of death. They aren't doing that for the money.

For the record I'm an atheist and struggle to understand how someone could believe in a god but I think religion gets way too harsh a deal on P&B and I figured it needed a defence. It's massively flawed but it does do a lot of good.

As much as I agree with you here, I do sometimes wonder just now much a minister would really care if he/she didn't have this (once perceived) 'job for life'.  As somebody who's fairly content with the basics with no intention of being flash, It comes across as a fairly cooshy number tbh.

There have to be a few ministers out there that have gradually seen past the childhood indoctrination but keep shtum for fear of having to find another job.   FWIW, I used to briefly work alongside a colleague who knew that her creationist views were completely incompatible with her day-to-day work, but she chose to carry on with the work because, and I quote: "it pays good money".  

[DiegoDiego]

Perhaps it does a lot of good at the ground level. I'd suggest that's down to individuals and occurs despite, not because of, the fact that they represent something that was built to control, manipulate and earn. Plenty of good guys work for Amazon. Doesnt mean Amazon is a benevolent entity

I'm not an expert but I'm pretty sure the early church had it pretty tough for a good few centuries. Just look at our flag.

As much as I agree with you here, I do sometimes wonder just now much a minister would really care if he/she didn't have this (once perceived) 'job for life'.  As somebody who's fairly content with the basics with no intention of being flash, It comes across as a fairly cooshy number tbh.
There have to be a few ministers out there that have gradually seen past the childhood indoctrination but keep shtum for fear of having to find another job.   FWIW, I used to briefly work alongside a colleague who knew that her creationist views were completely incompatible with her day-to-day work, but she chose to carry on with the work because, and I quote: "it pays good money".  

I guess the counter argument to that is that there are a great many people worldwide who have very strong faith in religion and don't get paid a penny for it. It's also not uncommon for people religious or otherwise to help strangers or those in the community without compensation.

[Bairnardo]

I guess the counter argument to that is that there are a great many people worldwide who have very strong faith in religion and don't get paid a penny for it. It's also not uncommon for people religious or otherwise to help strangers or those in the community without compensation.

It's the organised aspect of it I have an issue with. Manipulation of people in order to control and profit. A religious person may be good, (though I would contend they would find their own morals without religion) but that doesnt mean religion is good. As a concept, it is a pile of shite.

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

10 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

I guess the counter argument to that is that there are a great many people worldwide who have very strong faith in religion and don't get paid a penny for it. It's also not uncommon for people religious or otherwise to help strangers or those in the community without compensation.

It's the organised aspect of it I have an issue with. Manipulation of people in order to control and profit. A religious person may be good, (though I would contend they would find their own morals without religion) but that doesnt mean religion is good. As a concept, it is a pile of shite.

I agree.  Re your earlier post, I think it’s more about control than money, though money makes it easier to exercise control.  Religious coercion on issues such as sexuality and anti-feminism is still one of the plagues of modern society, particularly when we have people using their religion in pursuit of bias.  “Yes I can be homophobic because my imaginary sky fairy says so” is still too common and too often defended.

’Good’ people would be good without their religion, as will bad.  

[19QOS19]

Nothing more than a profit making organisation? Literally nothing more? Try telling a minister counseling a grieving widow that he's just doing it for the cash (which in Scotland is less than median wage).

The CoS is hardly flush with money. Their legacy of crumbling listed buildings is a financial millstone. Nobody in the kirk treats it like a money making organisation, they're putting fingers in dykes.

Outwith Scotland there are plenty of places where churches operate under threat of death. They aren't doing that for the money.

For the record I'm an atheist and struggle to understand how someone could believe in a god but I think religion gets way too harsh a deal on P&B and I figured it needed a defence. It's massively flawed but it does do a lot of good.

Perhaps it's not all about money making but it's definitely a Cult. Have you ever spoken to someone who is very very religious? It's frightening how their whole demeanour changes when you get them on the subject. There's passion then there's human conditioning as a result of brainwashing which is exactly what organised religion is.

Then we get on to all the shite spouted in the great book which has done far more damage over the years than good. I've worked with mentally unwell people who have come from religious backgrounds and it's partly stemmed from their religious upbringings. I know people who were terrified to come out as gay because of religious parents and the fear of them being disowned. My cousin's mother-in-law is well in with the church and apparently well respected: she hasn't spoken with her eldest daughter in years because she is living with a black man. That is religious people in a nutshell: I love you and wish you no ill harm, peace be with you - (providing you agree with my beliefs and don't question them).

In these times I find it incredible Religion and its teachings aren't under more scrutiny in all honesty.

[Sergeant Wilson]

God botherers of all kinds are encouraged to share their stories on our intranet. It was a Christian this week. Her story was obviously made up and had clear errors in an account of something that happened to reaffirm her faith. There seems to be no scrutiny, anyone questioning it woud be terrified of creating a diversity war.

I'm supportive of the other diversity issues highlighted but think religious people should be told to leave it at the door and practice it in your own time.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

I thought the first line of the clash’ punk classic i fought the law was - bacon rots in the hot sun instead of breaking rocks
Given the song title i think my misheard version is better than the real one

[DiegoDiego]

You can take extreme examples from any large organisation and make it sound bad (or good); I'm not going to call the sport of rugby inherently depraved and advocate its banning because of the initiation rites of some clubs. In essence it's a fine sport with mainly positive effects on society (and the "sky fairy" chat is just as infantile as "egg chasing").

I have met many very religious people in my time. Some of them were nutjobs (including a policeman who said it was his goal in life to visit Palestine and kill as many Jews as possible) and many of them were very calm, reasonable people who gave me food and weren't trying to convince me I was going to hell.

I'm not proselytising here as I'm an atheist but look at the mental health crisis then compare suicide rates between religious and non-religious people. Look at the crisis of abandoned elderly and imagine the role going to church/mosque/temple plays in giving them a social network.

I think a lot of religion's benefits are very difficult to measure and being part of a close community who are looking out for each other is probably a good thing even if some of the blazers are just in it for the money.

I'm not saying it's perfect but thought the subject was due some Devil's Advocating on here.

[Bairnardo]

7 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

 

Perhaps it's not all about money making but it's definitely a Cult. Have you ever spoken to someone who is very very religious? It's frightening how their whole demeanour changes when you get them on the subject. There's passion then there's human conditioning as a result of brainwashing which is exactly what organised religion is.

Then we get on to all the shite spouted in the great book which has done far more damage over the years than good. I've worked with mentally unwell people who have come from religious backgrounds and it's partly stemmed from their religious upbringings. I know people who were terrified to come out as gay because of religious parents and the fear of them being disowned. My cousin's mother-in-law is well in with the church and apparently well respected: she hasn't spoken with her eldest daughter in years because she is living with a black man. That is religious people in a nutshell: I love you and wish you no ill harm, peace be with you - (providing you agree with my beliefs and don't question them).

In these times I find it incredible Religion and its teachings aren't under more scrutiny in all honesty.

 

It has to be a cult. 

 

Everyone is an atheist, some just make an exception for one God. 

[welshbairn]

18 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

You can take extreme examples from any large organisation and make it sound bad (or good); I'm not going to call the sport of rugby inherently depraved and advocate its banning because of the initiation rites of some clubs. In essence it's a fine sport with mainly positive effects on society (and the "sky fairy" chat is just as infantile as "egg chasing").

I have met many very religious people in my time. Some of them were nutjobs (including a policeman who said it was his goal in life to visit Palestine and kill as many Jews as possible) and many of them were very calm, reasonable people who gave me food and weren't trying to convince me I was going to hell.

I'm not proselytising here as I'm an atheist but look at the mental health crisis then compare suicide rates between religious and non-religious people. Look at the crisis of abandoned elderly and imagine the role going to church/mosque/temple plays in giving them a social network.

I think a lot of religion's benefits are very difficult to measure and being part of a close community who are looking out for each other is probably a good thing even if some of the blazers are just in it for the money.

I'm not saying it's perfect but thought the subject was due some Devil's Advocating on here.

Some good old fashioned messaging from the traditional faiths might be a welcome counter to the irrational, often atheistic beliefs flourishing around the planet at the moment, which seem to be immune to rational, scientific and evidence based argument.

[19QOS19]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not proselytising here as I'm an atheist but look at the mental health crisis then compare suicide rates between religious and non-religious people. Look at the crisis of abandoned elderly and imagine the role going to church/mosque/temple plays in giving them a social network.

 

 

You might say they are preying on the lonely and the vulnerable? Not doing much to convince me it isn't a massive cult.

 

Sadly, homosexuality and the church isn't an extreme example, it's a pretty standard one and quite a big issue. For people to hear how the church feel and treat homosexuality and yet continue to follow or support that religion makes me wonder what kind of cretin they are deep down. I certainly couldn't give my time or money to an organisation so clearly bigoted.

 

[Gus Setsniffer]

nothing to share but i want to ask 

i stop at a junction today, behind a filthy white van, some wee rascal had fashioned a ''knob and baws'' on the back door but hairless baws, is this the norm these days, even doodles of dicks, have had a bic drawn over them ?

[DiegoDiego]

You might say they are preying on the lonely and the vulnerable? Not doing much to convince me it isn't a massive cult.

I think that's a bit of a reach, the majority of those who would otherwise feel alienated came to the church long before all their pals started dying.

 

Religion is by dictionary definition a massive cult, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.

 

 

Edit: you are of course completely correct about the anti-homosexuality and similar stances, though there are LGBT-affirming religions out there.

 

The previous example from whomever it was about racism goes against the central teachings of every religion I can think of and that woman should give some serious thought to whether she actually is a Christian or is just preying on the church for social benefit.

[Derry Alli]

Tonight I will be enjoying the Falkirk fans meltdown because they're not getting bigger handouts from the government due to playing in the Seaside League. It's only just started but has mega potential.

Apparently it's an "absolute joke" and "farcical" that because they're full time they should get more than Alloa and Arbroath. 

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Alli said:

Tonight I will be enjoying the Falkirk fans meltdown because they're not getting bigger handouts from the government due to playing in the Seaside League. It's only just started but has mega potential.

Apparently it's an "absolute joke" and "farcical" that because they're full time they should get more than Alloa and Arbroath. 

About to go full Green Street.

[DA Baracus]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Some good old fashioned messaging from the traditional faiths might be a welcome counter to the irrational, often atheistic beliefs flourishing around the planet at the moment, which seem to be immune to rational, scientific and evidence based argument.

Wait, what?

[DA Baracus]

There's barely anything in the bible about homosexuality. Think it's like a line or two at most, and even that is open to interpretation, yet folk of religion often go wild about it.

Strangely they don't go daft about the other nonsense, such as not eating shellfish, not shaving the side of your head and other iron age local plagiarism. They don't stone adulterers either.

Very selective stuff from a book that is as valid as any Harry Potter in terms of how to live your life.

'Sky bully' is a better term than 'Sky fairy' incidentally.

[welshbairn]

The Christian people I know in real life don't think homosexuality is evil or should be punished. Assuming everyone in the faith is a bigot is as idiotic as thinking the Pope is infallible. Even his own Cardinals don't think that.

Edited December 18, 2020 by welshbairn

[19QOS19]

The Christian people I know in real life don't think homosexuality is evil or should be punished. Assuming everyone in the faith is a bigot is as idiotic as thinking the Pope is infallible. Even his own Cardinals don't think that.

I never said they were all bigots. I said I question someone who follows a bigoted organisation.

[johnnydun]

1 hour ago, Mr. Alli said:

Tonight I will be enjoying the Falkirk fans meltdown because they're not getting bigger handouts from the government due to playing in the Seaside League. It's only just started but has mega potential.

Apparently it's an "absolute joke" and "farcical" that because they're full time they should get more than Alloa and Arbroath. 

Thanks for this. Great fun!