When will indyref2 happen?

[Crùbag]

Tory shambles takes the blame. Who knew?

https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/21538-tory-shambles-boosts-support-for-scottish-independence

 

Quote

 

“saving the union had to be more than about money and that emotional and historical levers had to be pulled to remind Scots of their common inheritance with the rest of the UK.”

But that usually seems to be about commemorating World War Two and Britain’s supposed “finest hour.” We’ve had plenty of that in recent months, but it hasn’t done the trick north of the border.

 

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, Crùbag said:

Tory shambles takes the blame. Who knew?

https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/21538-tory-shambles-boosts-support-for-scottish-independence

 

It's kinda hard to replicate the 'finest hour' stuff when you can't spend decades whitewashing the class hatred and major blunders of the Tory government. I'm sure in 2077 when we're living in the irradiated wasteland that there'll be some people who look back fondly at 'Are Boris.

[John Lambies Doos]

The People's Vote/confirmation vote arguments are going to be exhausting. 
 

Nope. Precedent set with Brexit.
One more vote and we need to get it right!!!

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

Gove, Galloway, Jack Mcconnell and Beaker Alexander are apparently forming a staunch version of the Suicide Sqaud to defeat indy.

[Granny Danger]

33 minutes ago, Sherrif John Bunnell said:

Gove, Galloway, Jack Mcconnell and Beaker Alexander are apparently forming a staunch version of the Suicide Sqaud to defeat indy.

It’s like someone has taken the idea of the ‘Fantastic Four’ and turned it on it’s head.

 

[Boo Khaki]

On 15/08/2020 at 14:40, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Who do you plan on shooting? Asking for a mate called Boris (no relation).

As a society, if enough Scots feel strongly that we shouldn't be part of the Union anymore, I think we'd be much more likely to go down the non-cooperation route. I don't think 54% is anything close to triggering that sentiment. It's difficult to claim that just over half, according to some organisations, over a period of a few months, is going to cut any mustard with either the ruling classes, nor the minority (hee) who are happy with/fear change to the status quo.

If you want my opinion, which is worthless, this is going to take years, and we'll eventually gain independence on the back of a new Westminster government elected on the basis of granting a referendum to Scotland, with not only the backing of Scots, but also the backing of people in England who want rid of us after decades of "who do the Jocks think they are?" rhetoric from the press. Similar to how they eventually got Britain out of the EU, after a lifetime of trying.

...but, if you went back thirty years, I wouldn't believe we'd be where we are now. We've come a long way, baby.

I'm interested to hear more about what said 'non-cooperation' would entail exactly?

Presumably you're talking about a scenario whereby the in situ Scottish Government refuses to enact or enable reserved policy across Scotland? Or is it more that you mean a policy of non-cooperation in terms of blanking westminster almost like severing diplomatic relations with them?

Surely there must be provision within the Devolution legislation for unceremoniously booting any particularly obstreperous devolved administration firmly into the sea, withholding funding etc? Even then, is that not just a fast-track to having Westminster dissolve Holyrood entirely and resuming 100% responsibility for all governance?

Don't get me wrong; in the event that BoJo continues to dingie a 2nd Referendum after Scotland returns a thumping pro-indi majority to Holyrood, there's a thron part of me that would love to see the SG just become an utter thorn in Westminster's side and resist them in every and any way possible, but surely someone foresaw that possibility when the Devolution legislation was first drawn up. They clearly never envisaged a situation whereby one party would ever have a majority in any case though, so perhaps there are more ridiculous oversights in play?

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, Boo Khaki said:

Surely there must be provision within the Devolution legislation for unceremoniously booting any particularly obstreperous devolved administration firmly into the sea, withholding funding etc? Even then, is that not just a fast-track to having Westminster dissolve Holyrood entirely and resuming 100% responsibility for all governance?

Probably. I'm of the opinion that any civil disobedience is going to shed Yes voters (for a variety of reasons one of which being that the vast majority of Scots aren't noticeably materially oppressed from Westminster) but that it might end up being necessary to secure another referendum in the next few years. If people are happy to play the long game then fair enough but that has its own problems chief of which being that there'll be f**k all left to build a new country with. At the same time it's obviously not helpful to shed numbers back to a minority and just lose the referendum.

There's no easy path to take and the SNP's caution, while it makes electoral sense, has its own risks and drawbacks which might not bother them too much since they aren't as progressive as they claim but will make the job of building a socialist Scotland exponentially more difficult.

What really bugs me is that the dominant critics of the SNP's path to independence are uniformly zoomers many of which appear to disagree with Sturgeon on egotistical rather than ideological or strategic grounds.

All moot anyway I guess as things stand. It'll be interesting to see how things fall out in May of next year.

[Baxter Parp]

Phew.

[Boo Khaki]

Nah, that fucker needs fired into the moon/sun before I'll breathe easy.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Boo Khaki

[Antlion]

3 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

Phew.

Presumably he also doesn’t have to see too many of those “damn blacks” his hero Starkey moaned about in New Zealand. Not so many of those men in dresses either, so he might finally have cause to invite dear J K  over and finally meet her in person.

[Boo Khaki]

Missus has the misfortune to encounter him regularly through work, and confirms that he's every bit the colossal bellend in person that he is on screen and in the media. I think it's always a real life-affirming experience to find out that your utter disdain for somebody is entirely fairly placed and held.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Boo Khaki

[Antlion]

3 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Missus has the misfortune to encounter him regularly through work, and confirms that he's every bit the colossal bellend in person that he is on screen and in the media. I think it's always a real life-affirming experience to find out that your utter disdain for somebody is entirely fairly placed and held.

Aye, have heard he’s an egotistical “do you know who I am?” style w****r from a few folk in Stirling. No surprise.

It’s good to see that UK nationalism is intent on placing itself in the worst hands possible, and committed to being on the wrong, backwards, and reactionary side on every modern issue too.

[Boo Khaki]

1 minute ago, Antlion said:

Aye, have heard he’s an egotistical “do you know who I am?” style w****r from a few folk in Stirling. No surprise.

It’s good to see that UK nationalism is intent on placing itself in the worst hands possible, and committed to being on the wrong, backwards, and reactionary side on every modern issue too.

Exactly how missus describes him as well.

Feel I ought to add that he's a figure of fun and amusement for the genuine academics she works with as well. I'm not generally speaking a huge fan of snobbery, but in this case I think it's more pity and bemusement than a case of professional snobbery. I've met most of the folk she works with and they're overwhelmingly decent types.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Boo Khaki

[D Angelo Barksdale]

 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

 

Pretty obviously a number of people are very uncomfortable with the idea of Scotland assuming a role other than that of mendicant serf begging for crumbs at the Westminster table. And of course none of them see Johnson's holiday as what it was, a patronising attempt to ingratiate his Government with the Scottish electorate. As for safety concerns, I'm struggling to square that with almost universal indifference.

[John Lambies Doos]

And of course none of them see Johnson's holiday as what it was, a patronising attempt to ingratiate his Government with the Scottish electorate.

Yip, fair play to him. His integration with the Scottish electorate and being down with the people should see him reap the benefit in the upcoming polls

[Lurkst]

2 hours ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

 

Read some of the replies,  equally worthy of a 

[DAFC.]

Galloway, Gove, McConnell and Alexander here to save the union. Sound like the 4 horseman of the apocalypse. 

Absolutely shiting myself that we are up against that lot during indyref2. 

The only people they'll get on side are the staunchy, Union-at-all-cost types, who are already on side. The 'don't knows' are clearly people that are still unsure about more pressing issues, like currency and trident.  The SNP really need to get their arse in gear and be consistent on the currency issue. Do that, and I believe it should be a comfortable Yes (minimum 55%)

Edited August 23, 2020 by DAFC.

[Paco]

Anyone voting Yes is still taking a leap of faith. The difference from last time is that the leap will be from Brexit Britain, not a hope that better things would arrive after the following year’s election. Major pain is coming no matter what happens, realistically independence will only make it a few percentage points better or worse.

It’s clear from the likes of Andrew Neil’s Twitter that currency is going to be the main attack plan. It’ll work on some, and to be honest not unreasonably so. He’s very much playing the ‘you tell me your plan, and I’ll tell you why it’s bad’ game at the moment which shows the challenge Yes will have. There isn’t a clear and obvious answer that’ll please everyone.

Having said that, any plan the Scottish Government sets out can’t be guaranteed to happen. They could say a new currency pegged to the pound but in the event of a Yes vote, the UK Gov beg Scotland to use sterling for ten years to stop it tanking. Or it could tank anyway and pegging a Scottish pound to GBP would be idiotic. The only guarantee is it’ll be a major issue, maybe the final remaining major hurdle for Yes to overcome. I don’t think we can pretend Scotland is politically similar to England anymore, we can’t pretend the union protects EU membership, we can’t pretend Scotland is listened to, we can’t pretend we’re equal partners.

But money is something everyone cares about and has a stake in. I couldn’t believe it when some of the more, er, enthusiastic on here were writing it off as a non-issue a few pages ago. It’ll be the focal point of the campaign for the ‘don’t knows’ or those not ideologically driven.

[BFTD]

Did somebody use naughty language against Boris or something? Why's he supposed to be feeling unsafe?

Incidentally, it's good to see the other options for IndyRef2 starting to creep up to 'Before 2020'. Impressive that some optimists were still voting for that one in mid-December, like the First Minister was likely to throw a snap Christmas Day poll if we'd been very good boys and girls last year.